[Catharsis]

Hi there,

I've been researching this for weeks, and though I've found "some" clear answers, there is still a bit of controversy. This post specifically has to do with my very careful A/B findings with the Little Dot MKIII gain settings. My setup is as follows:

Sony DVP-NS315 (CD transport) -> EMU 0404USB (via coaxial digital) -> Little Dot MKIII (stock tubes) -> DT880s (2005).

As the gain setting progressively moves up the ladder from 3 to 10 I have noticed the following phenomenon (while trying to level the volume as closely as possible between gain settings):

1. Soundstage narrows
2. Instrument separation decreases (things feel less separated / distinct)
3. Midrange becomes more "tubey" (you can hear the resonance)
4. Bass becomes stronger albeit slightly more boomy
5. Treble rolls off just a little

In fact, if I may be so inclined, I would have to say that the sound signature of the little dot MKIII is more prevalent the higher I set my gain. The lowest gain setting is actually a more accurate description of what the DT880 is supposed to sound like. It's as though the higher gain settings are "introducing" the sound of the amp into the final end product. Make sense?

I realize some people say gain setting doesn't make any sonic difference other than percieved volume, but I strongly disagree. Anyone else notice these changes?

 

[darwinshardhat]

higher gain most definitely makes a sonic difference in my experience so I totally agree with you. The question of what is optimal will get a very mixed bag of opinions I'm sure. I think of it as a balance of power between the phones and the amp. At lower gains the headphones are shaping the sound more and at higher gains the amp becomes more dominant. I believe the amps ability to control the sound and amplify it accurately gets a little sloppier and at higher gain too. I think the effects are greater on high impedance phones like yours too.

I really want to try out a tube amp. I think a LD or similar is next on my list to try.

 

[Catharsis]

That's a good way of putting it.

It does seem that higher gain "amplifies" the signal and in doing so - it would be reasonable to assume that the sound of the amp would bleed in to the original signal.

On low gain, there is minimal amplification and as such, the original signal is distorted by the amp's signature far less.

High gain = tubey little dot III signature
Low gain = headphone signature

I'm not sure if this phenomenon would be as apparent with SS amps. This does however shine a light on how people might perceive the sound of headphones differently. Before I started messing around with my gain settings (when I kept it at 10 all the time), I would have said that the DT880s didn't have much soundstage, and were quite boomy!

 

[sunseeker888]

My Little Dot MKII did this too.... I totally agree with you. As gain goes down, negative-feedback between the output and driver stages increases. This is likely accountable for what you're hearing. Topic of great debate in a lot of audio circles. SS vs. Tube kind of thing, although both topologies can use zero feedback OR extreme amounts of it.

 

[Henmyr]

Very strange. A few days ago I started to play with the gain setting. Before, I've always used all att on, which is max negative feedback which results in lowest gain if I get it right.

I've now put it at high gain (10x, all off). My impression was that of MORE attack, bass control and maybe more treble. My low-impedance headphones didn't improve much, if at all, but my HD600 changed a lot (if it's not placebo). The attack changed a lot and the sound is much more punchy. The soundstage increased and more importantly, air and imaging increased a LOT.

The HD600 really opened up at high gain (if it's not placebo) and the change was not subtle.

I do agree with a more tubey midrange which seem to be the only drawback.

 

[apatN]

I agree. I believe it is at gain 5 atm and it sounds good with both the Beyers and Alessandros.
BTW can anyone comment on whether this info is right:

Quote:

It comes with all the switches ON, which makes the gain level 3. If you flip all the switches to OFF, then it will be at gain level 10. Switch one ON and switch two OFF is gain level 5. Switch one OFF and two ON is gain level 4.

Thanks.

 

[m0ofassa]

Direct from the MKIII manual:
switch 1: off Switch 2: off Gain: 10 Suitable for 300+ ohms
Switch 1: on Switch 2: off Gain: 5
Switch 1: off Switch 2: on Gain: 4
Switch 1: on Switch 2: on Gain: 3.
You need to do both sides since it's dual mono circuits (I think hthats why)
edit: mine came on gain setting 4, but the switches have 'on' written on them
swapped mine from 10 to 5 as per apatNs suggestion. Sound seems a lot clearer. Could be placebo with my suggestability.

 

[apatN]

^ That was my finding as well. If I were to describe the difference gain 10 sounds thicker. Think of a wall of sound. Gain 5 is a little clearer with more air to the instruments.
I only changed it because of my Alessandros had some major channel imbalance but it sounds very nice this way.

 

[Catharsis]

There certainly is more thickness to the sound with the DT880s on the LDIII. I remember months ago when I had the LDIII set to 10 gain the bass and midrange sounded so full and bloomy - albeit everything sounded like a "wall of sound". I also couldn't turn the volume pot past 10:00 without going deaf.

Now with gain set to 4 the "airiness" and instrument separation is superb and I hear a better demonstration of attack and decay. The soundstage has really opened up but the bass quantity has lessened (to what I would consider consistent of Beyer DT880s - they're no bass monster like they were on gain 10). Now I listen with the volume pot between 11:00 and 1:00.

 

[Catharsis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henmyr /img/forum/go_quote.gif Very strange. A few days ago I started to play with the gain setting. Before, I've always used all att on, which is max negative feedback which results in lowest gain if I get it right. I've now put it at high gain (10x, all off). My impression was that of MORE attack, bass control and maybe more treble. My low-impedance headphones didn't improve much, if at all, but my HD600 changed a lot (if it's not placebo). The attack changed a lot and the sound is much more punchy. The soundstage increased and more importantly, air and imaging increased a LOT. The HD600 really opened up at high gain (if it's not placebo) and the change was not subtle. I do agree with a more tubey midrange which seem to be the only drawback.

That's really interesting. I wonder if that much juice (gain) is necessary to drive the HD600s. How far do you turn your volume dial to achieve comfortable listening levels while at gain 10? Just out of curiosity.

 

[Catharsis]

Furthermore, my understanding of gain from a "techincally accurate" standpoint, is that you should amplify as little as possible to achieve reasonable listening levels without distortion for best SQ. It may be that some people love a bassy and bloomy sound with gain 10, but technically this is considered colouration.

Most of this amplification should be done as early-on in the hardware chain as well. Having your source maxed (without distorting) is ideal, and only then, increasing amplification gain just enough to hear loudly with good control of the volume pot (which for me is gain 4).

 

[Henmyr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catharsis /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's really interesting. I wonder if that much juice (gain) is necessary to drive the HD600s. How far do you turn your volume dial to achieve comfortable listening levels while at gain 10? Just out of curiosity.

On the 100 scale LDMKIII has, I'm usually between 4 and 6 at gain 10, so I do not have a lot of room to dial.

 

[apatN]

I don't understand. When I use coaxial out with my X-FI set up to bit-perfect and Foobar I only have the volume pot at ~10%...

 

[Catharsis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henmyr /img/forum/go_quote.gif On the 100 scale LDMKIII has, I'm usually between 4 and 6 at gain 10, so I do not have a lot of room to dial.

Hmmm....so you're saying that your HD600s only allow you to just barely move the volume pot without blowing your eardrums? You're not referring to 4:00 and 6:00 are you?

With mine set to gain 4 (granted I have totally different phones), my comfort zone is 12:00, and the maximum dial turn is just beyond my loudness maximum. This of course = perfect from a gain setting perspective.

 

[Henmyr]

No I don't refer to X:00 but the written scale. At highest gain I don't need to go beyond 10 at the dial with the HD600.

Measurements with pink noise, dBC fast response, "sylvania black plate halo getter 5654W". Zero dac -> LD MKIII -> HD600 stock cable:

Dial / dBC
10: 63 dBC
20: 73 dBC
30: 81 dBC

Pink noise is not a good measure though as when I tried a song at 10 it peaked at 79 dBC.

EDIT: Even with gain 3 I would never pass 20 (9:00) with HD600. K501 may need 30 (10:00) at times but very rarely.