[alekc]

Unless he like GTO filter which is like super oversampling which I think sound too digital to me. I like 7.4b but I also don't care about MQA LOL.

If I remember correctly the GTO filter is quite similar to MQA filter. I've been using it for some time with some of ifi dacs. With Signature I've stayed with 7.4.

 

[Hyde00]

Oh I'd also like to mention you can buy those 90 degree usb c cable which make the charging port on the side a bit less terrible.

But otherwise yeah you'd still need a separate phone charger or something just to charge.

Only the original silver one and black label has the 2 in 1 charging + data in one cable.

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

Only the original silver one and black label has the 2 in 1 charging + data in one cable.

In 2024 we have USB-C PD with up to 240W (48V/5A) power delivery WITH data on the same USB-C plug.

So in theory a single cable will work.

Sadly, most PC's USB ports still max out at 5V/0.9A per port or 4.5W.

That is not enough to run the original Silver/Black iDSD's on USB Power except in Eco mode.

A lot of thought went into the power system for the original iDSD micro, to allow higher power than USB limits. It included operation where the system transparently draws on the Battery to supplement USB Power.

At the same time the idea was to make all of this as transparent to the user as possible.

That needed specific hardware, for which some IC's were EOL by the time I worked on the "Red Label", and a huge load of software support.

Using a separate USB-C "charge only" port significantly simplified design and allowed (assuming a sufficiently powerful charger - 25 - 30W minimum) the Red Label (aka Diablo) to totally deactivate the battery and run on external power only and to use the host (laptop, phone, tablet) only for data on a separate connection (we had a lot of complaints of the originals sucking phone/tablet batteries dry, when they went into "sleep".

I suspect that the "signature" inherited the upgraded power supply from the red label. It was a separate plug in module.

But I had no involvement with the signature.

If so, there is no hardware present to allow the Signature to draw power from the data cable.

Thor

PS, I still use a Black Label.

TBH, I see no reason to choose the Signature or Diablo (both appear EOL or have been replaced) over a good condition 2nd hand black label. By the time you unpacked the brand new Signature or Diablo it will be 2nd hand anyway.

Save the cash and get a better headphone.

 

[Hyde00]

Using a separate USB-C "charge only" port significantly simplified design and allowed (assuming a sufficiently powerful charger - 25 - 30W minimum) the Red Label (aka Diablo) to totally deactivate the battery and run on external power only and to use the host (laptop, phone, tablet) only for data on a separate connection (we had a lot of complaints of the originals sucking phone/tablet batteries dry, when they went into "sleep".

Wait Diablo 1 is able to power entirely just from the seperate power source?!?!?! (Assuming powerful enough charger)

That's surprising to know. To be honest I like the sound of the iDSD line but just generally not fond of battery since I really only need it for desktop usage.

So I was actually happy to see that when Diablo 2 came out it come with a step up transformer to allow using the unit while being USB charged. Just didn't know Diablo 1 was also capable of that (not the step up transformer part but the run on usb power part).

That and in general I find the price too high so as you said maybe better to get the much cheaper black label instead.

But thanks for giving us the insight regarding the power source.

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

Wait Diablo 1 is able to power entirely just from the seperate power source?!?!?! (Assuming powerful enough charger)

All of the "Portable" iFi Products I was involved with use one of two possible Charger/Battery management solutions.

Both will use external power, if external power is available to power the internal circuits and to charge the battery IF there is any "spare" current available to do so.

So with external power, it is ALWAYS external power that is used, UNLESS there is not enough power in which case the system "fails over" to the battery.

In the first generation of products (up to iDSD micro BL) the Battery Management solution included something called "Auto Power Path", in which case the battery would supplement power from the USB Port, if the USB port voltage dropped lower than the battery voltage.

That's surprising to know. To be honest I like the sound of the iDSD line but just generally not fond of battery since I really only need it for desktop usage.

The battery was essential to allow high output power while operating from a standard USB Power.

The 5V @ 0.5A from standard USB 2.0 Port is not enough to operate the iDSD micro (silver / black) except in "eco" mode, where it is barely enough.

The 5V @ 0.9A from a standard USB 3.0 Port is barely enough to operate the iDSD micro (silver / black) in "normal" mode, it will charge the battery VERY SLOWLY in eco mode.

As a result the units relied on battery power in a relatively smart way. Not only was a "desktop mode" implemented, where the battery is only charged to 70% (meaning lifespan is equal to shelf life) but the DAC would shut down power intensive circuitry after a few minutes without signal and use USB power to recharge the battery.

So I was actually happy to see that when Diablo 2 came out it come with a step up transformer to allow using the unit while being USB charged. Just didn't know Diablo 1 was also capable of that (not the step up transformer part but the run on usb power part).

Yes, this was however always possible with iFi products even long before Red Label / Diablo.

That and in general I find the price too high

Yes, in recent times it seems iFi prices according to what the market will bear as opposed to "cost plus a fair profit".

So you find devices designed to sell at 149 USD at 349 USD and device designed for a 299 USD price point sold at 799 USD.

so as you said maybe better to get the much cheaper black label instead.

It is better.

In reality the BL has comparable real-world power output and will drive all headphones under the sun except AKG K-1000 to deafening levels, it has a more forgiving, slightly warm and tubey sound and offers a bass boost tailored for open back audiophile dynamic headphones and a cross-feed designed for real-word operation, not based on some questionable math from the green table.

The only drawback is the need for a high power USB Port on the PC/Laptop or the use of a high power charging hub (e.g. Orico USB 3.0 with BC1.2 for under 50 Bux or any ifi iUSB 3.0).

And the lack of BT.

Thor

 

[zakarhino]

Anyone know where to get a replacement cable? The blue USB to female USB one. I don't mind if it's third party I just need it to be roughly the equivalent length.

 

[Hyde00]

And the lack of BT.

Luckily I don't need BT, so this should be no problem at all!

And thank you for you indepth explanation on the power system.

Anyone know where to get a replacement cable? The blue USB to female USB one. I don't mind if it's third party I just need it to be roughly the equivalent length.

I don't know about the stock cable length, but really any usb a to usb a extension cable will work.

I use this cable with 6 feet length. But they offer multiple length so you can just pick the size you want.

UGREEN USB Extension Cable

EDIT: I found another one, if you're picky about it being blue then this look like a closer match. Also come in multiple lengths.

JacobsParts USB Extension Cable

 

[zakarhino]

Luckily I don't need BT, so this should be no problem at all!

And thank you for you indepth explanation on the power system.



I don't know about the stock cable length, but really any usb a to usb a extension cable will work.

I use this cable with 6 feet length. But they offer multiple length so you can just pick the size you want.

UGREEN USB Extension Cable

EDIT: I found another one, if you're picky about it being blue then this look like a closer match. Also come in multiple lengths.

JacobsParts USB Extension Cable

Thank you! I'll go with the UGREEN one. I was concerned about whether or not the female end would fit in the device cutout.

Again, much appreciated.

 

[AnyDave]

Thank you! I'll go with the UGREEN one. I was concerned about whether or not the female end would fit in the device cutout.

Again, much appreciated.

I'm not sure if it's that exact UGREEN variant, but I've used their USB extensions in the past with my iFi iDSD Sig and they worked just fine.

 

[Sonic Defender]

Luckily I don't need BT, so this should be no problem at all!

And thank you for you indepth explanation on the power system.



I don't know about the stock cable length, but really any usb a to usb a extension cable will work.

I use this cable with 6 feet length. But they offer multiple length so you can just pick the size you want.

UGREEN USB Extension Cable

EDIT: I found another one, if you're picky about it being blue then this look like a closer match. Also come in multiple lengths.

JacobsParts USB Extension Cable

You totally do need BT, everyone does, even if they don't realize it But in all seriousness, there is absolutely no appreciable sound quality difference with modern BT implementations. In the past, maybe BT was audibly compromised, but not for a number of years now. I will guarantee you, those who claim to hear a difference have not in any way done appropriate testing. I had very good speakers, a really nice NAD Master Series amp and listened to almost exclusively very well recorded music. Despite having the Gustard X16 DAC with amazing USB, I could never, ever hear any difference with BT versus USB. so I simply streamed local files from my phone using BT.

I know you weren't asking to engage in a discussion about the merits of BT, so my apology, but the convenience of BT, and the top notch sound quality it can provide is worth really promoting. I do apologize for getting on my soap box and using your post to do so. I figure you might be a Leaf's fan, so you can probably take the frustration .

 

[Hyde00]

You totally do need BT, everyone does, even if they don't realize it But in all seriousness, there is absolutely no appreciable sound quality difference with modern BT implementations. In the past, maybe BT was audibly compromised, but not for a number of years now. I will guarantee you, those who claim to hear a difference have not in any way done appropriate testing. I had very good speakers, a really nice NAD Master Series amp and listened to almost exclusively very well recorded music. Despite having the Gustard X16 DAC with amazing USB, I could never, ever hear any difference with BT versus USB. so I simply streamed local files from my phone using BT.

I know you weren't asking to engage in a discussion about the merits of BT, so my apology, but the convenience of BT, and the top notch sound quality it can provide is worth really promoting. I do apologize for getting on my soap box and using your post to do so. I figure you might be a Leaf's fan, so you can probably take the frustration .

For BT, I think depending on application. For example when I use my headphone on my computer I find it much easier to just use USB to DAC so it output all sound to my DAC then onto amp and onto headphone.

Though for driving, oh yeah totally much easier to use BT connect to car, and in the kitchen also much easier to use the BT speaker we have at kitchen. At no point in time I was like oh I wish sound quality is better.

As for Leafs, I actually don't watch sports but I do hear the pain and agony from my friends.

 

[zakarhino]

While I'm here might I say the iDSD Signature and Monarch Mk.3 are a match made in heaven. I love the iDSD Signature so much save for some low volume balance issues (which apparently are fixed in the Finale edition?) and the IEM Match switch was a bit broken (if you wiggle it the sound goes funny lol).

Is there a successor to the iDSD Signature/Finale coming?

 

[Hyde00]

While I'm here might I say the iDSD Signature and Monarch Mk.3 are a match made in heaven. I love the iDSD Signature so much save for some low volume balance issues (which apparently are fixed in the Finale edition?) and the IEM Match switch was a bit broken (if you wiggle it the sound goes funny lol).

lol I have a sensitive headphone so I have this exact same issue when I tried my friend's iDSD Silver. Like I barely have enough usable volume range.

Which I've read is fixed in the Finale, would be nice if anyone can confirm this.

Is there a successor to the iDSD Signature/Finale coming?

As far as I know it goes like this:

iDSD (Silver)
iDSD Black Label (Black)
iDSD Signature (Blue)
iDSD Signature Finale (Black)
Diablo (Red)
Diablo II (Red)

And they all have different sound signature, but generally speaking the older ones are warmer and the newer ones are more brighter / neutral.

So I don't know if Diablo counts as the "successor" but it was the next product iFi made.

 

[jsmiller58]

If I understand it correctly - and I might not - the reason to separate the power and data is that solution provides for the cleanest audio by minimizing any chance for noise from the power supply affecting the data input path… or at least that’s what I think I’ve read. I have a couple of devices that use this feature - the Finale and the Earmen Angel, and it doesn’t bother me at all, but that’s just me.

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

As far as I know it goes like this:

Release sequence and details:

iDSD (Silver) - Original design, dual DSD1793 DAC, OPA1642 Analogue Stage and Preamp, TPA6120 Headphone Amp.
iDSD Black Label (Black) - Upgraded Power supply Capacitors and a few other parts, actual PCB and principle design is 100% same as silver, Volume controls in late silvers and most blacks underwent extra selection to minimise the channel imbalance problem

Diablo (Red) - new / altered design, up to DAC the same, after DAC changed analogue stage (balanced out, using OPA1679 instead of OPA1642), balanced multi-loop headphone amp using OPA1679 and TPA6120, "constant feedback / variable gain design" that keeps feedback levels and thus relative distortion/noise levels the same even with increased gain

iDSD Signature (Blue) - PCB redesign changed some connectors, removed features, most of the principal design carried over from the Black (I am guessing from Photo's that fail to show material differences - I was no longer involved by the time it was worked on).

iDSD Signature Finale (Black) - Appears same as Blue Sig, seems like a special batch for Adorama unless I'm mistaken..

Diablo II (Red) - PCB redesign, changes XMOS from plug in to on board, removes the physically separated switching power supply and places it on board, adds bluetooth. PCB Photo's and measured performance suggest DAC and Audio sections between D1 & D2 remain fundamentally unchanged.

As to how Diablo (working title black label - keep walking) and Black Label relate, long story. The Red Label started in 2016 BC (BC - Before Covid) as a version aimed mainly at China (hence the red paintjob), where it was perceived that having features like bass boost, cross feed, digital filter selection and even the dull black colour etc. hindered sales. Features were apparently perceived as "band aid" to a poor DAC/Amp and not understood / marketed correctly as correction for shortcomings of headphones (bass boost, cross feed) and/or fundamental limitations/shortcommings of digital audio.

It is as such not a successor but an alternate product originally meant for the 499 USD retail Market Niche the Black Label occupied, for the kind of people (Chinese or not) who mistakenly believed that "features are bad" but which leveraged a lot of the existing tech in the black label (entire digital section, power supply, originally it even used OPA1642 & TPA6120 in the HP Amp) to have a lot of commonality, efficient production etc.

The original prototypes were single ended and in the same case with just really a different front and no switches except front on the Red Label. Kind of: "Make a choice, take the Red DAC or the Black DAC".

Additionally the headphone amplifier was redesigned from a setup that was meant to sound more like a good (read not overtly coloured) Tube Amp to a more modern "ultra low distortion" design which to me always sounds a bit bright and bland, well, different strokes for different blokes.

The HP Amp is somewhat similar on the most fundamental level to THX AAA, yest it is a completely independent design not based on THX, but rather derived the Ed Cherry NDFL Principles (see attachment) published decades before THX's design.

So one line of products runs from the original iDSD micro (which in turn kind of combined the iCAN micro and iDSD nano into one case with extra features) through the Black Label (which is echoed in the Zen Signature edition units with upgraded components) to the Finale and Final Finale and who knows if there will not be another version be tacked on the tail.

They fundamentally are the same and should sound very much alike with well run in examples, with the silver unit sounding a little less resolved and open. Black, Blue and Blackish Blue should all sound pretty much the same, if at similar states of run in.

The Red Label / Diablo line has just seen the second release and should be seen as a "fork" (in the sense of forked Open Source Software projects) of the Black Label that took the same starting point to make a different final product with different features and performance but again, they should very much alike between V1/2 (if not, I suspect lack of correct level matching and/or lack of burn in).

Asking "which one is better" needs to be answered with "whichever makes you more involved with your music and which makes you enjoy listening to your music more". And that is a personal question everyone needs to answer for themselves by actually listening. No amount of reading fora on the net of the million lies will be equal to even one minute of an actual listening comparison.

Thor

Addendum, Ed Cherry NDFL principle illustrated from the 1983 ETI Article)

https://linearaudio.net/sites/linearaudio.net/files/cherry ndfl.pdf