Would a Fiio e17 be good enough for a HE-4.
Sep 5, 2013 at 6:47 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 9

ccaian

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I can't find much information about the HE 4. I know its old but im getting a good used deal on it. Also how does it compare with the likes of a HD 598, disregarding price difference. I can't find a shop carrying the HE 4 so i'm worried I might not like it upon hearing it.
 
Sep 5, 2013 at 9:30 AM Post #2 of 9
Heya,
 
The E17 cannot drive the HE-4 properly. It cannot drive any of the Hifiman orthos properly except the HE400, and even then, it's still not ideal. That's not to say it won't work. You can plug it in and I'm sure you'll get some sound at maximum volume. But volume does not mean it's properly driven. During a complex piece with a lot of different things going on, you'll probably notice clipping, muddiness, etc.
 
The HE-4 has a sensitivity rating of 86db/mw and impedance of 38 ohms. It takes a TON of current to over-come that inefficiency of 86db/mw. The E17 cannot provide that. Most headphone amps cannot even provide sufficient current for that level of inefficiency. This is a headphone that you find typically hooked up to speaker amplifiers. The HE-6 is 83db/mw for comparison, and the HE500 is 89db/mw. The HE-4 sits in the middle. So it needs way more than 1 watt at 38ohms to be ideal. Probably needs closer to 2~3 watts at 38ohms for the HE-4 to be properly driven.
 
Use the E17 as a DAC. But it simply cannot give you the juice for the HE-4 to be properly driven.
 
Look for a solid state amp (headphone or speaker, doesn't matter) that does about 2~3 watts into 38ohms if you want to drive the HE-4. NFB12 & 15.32 are inexpensive options that do this. Schiit Lyr. Otherwise, the cheapest way is a speaker amp.
 
Very best,
 
Sep 5, 2013 at 10:23 AM Post #3 of 9
How bad are we talking here? Like worse than my HD 598s? :frowning2: It might take me awhile to get hold of an amp because of my exams but I would still like to listen to some music while studying.
 
Sep 5, 2013 at 10:29 AM Post #4 of 9
Heya,
 
It's not going to sound like absolute rubbish, but again, you need to know what you're getting into before you just get a headphone like the HE-4. It's not typical at all. It takes tons of power to drive. People who think the K701 and other headphones are "hard" to drive have no idea until they experience something like the HE-4 or HE-6 which just require tons and tons of current to develop their sound pressure because they're just so inefficient. Again, people literally use 50watt and higher speaker amps for these headphones. Not portable milliwatt cellphone battery amps.
 
I'm just saying that for the money you're going to drop to get the HE-4, it takes more to even power it. It's not as simple as buying a headphone and listening to it. You have to have a way to power it. Think of them like little speakers. Speakers don't play music on their own. They need a power source. The HE-4 is a little set of speakers. And honestly are harder to drive than some speakers. They are that inefficient.
 
If you're set on getting them. Go for it. They're excellent if you can power them. The E17 isn't going to be enough. It's just not. Will you hear something? Sure. But it won't be dynamic, it won't have the texture, refinement, and extension and control that it should have because you're feeding it a handful of milliwatts instead of 2.5watts that it needs. At maximum volume, you might just get a whisper from it basically. It may play loud enough to listen to stuff, but it will not be able to control it at peak levels, and it will not control the low frequencies at all, which require most of the energy.
 
Very best,
 
Sep 5, 2013 at 10:39 AM Post #5 of 9
  Heya,
 
The E17 cannot drive the HE-4 properly. It cannot drive any of the Hifiman orthos properly except the HE400, and even then, it's still not ideal. That's not to say it won't work. You can plug it in and I'm sure you'll get some sound at maximum volume. But volume does not mean it's properly driven. During a complex piece with a lot of different things going on, you'll probably notice clipping, muddiness, etc.
 
The HE-4 has a sensitivity rating of 86db/mw and impedance of 38 ohms. It takes a TON of current to over-come that inefficiency of 86db/mw. The E17 cannot provide that. Most headphone amps cannot even provide sufficient current for that level of inefficiency. This is a headphone that you find typically hooked up to speaker amplifiers. The HE-6 is 83db/mw for comparison, and the HE500 is 89db/mw. The HE-4 sits in the middle. So it needs way more than 1 watt at 38ohms to be ideal. Probably needs closer to 2~3 watts at 38ohms for the HE-4 to be properly driven.
 
Use the E17 as a DAC. But it simply cannot give you the juice for the HE-4 to be properly driven.
 
Look for a solid state amp (headphone or speaker, doesn't matter) that does about 2~3 watts into 38ohms if you want to drive the HE-4. NFB12 & 15.32 are inexpensive options that do this. Schiit Lyr. Otherwise, the cheapest way is a speaker amp.
 
Very best,

I am sorry, I am just a noob. How could I relate the output of amp (for example, e17 has an output of 220 mW@32Ω /> 290 mW@16Ω ) with sensitivity of headphones?
K240 mkii has sensitivity of 104 dB SPL/V, what does it mean?
 
Sep 5, 2013 at 11:06 AM Post #7 of 9
  I am sorry, I am just a noob. How could I relate the output of amp (for example, e17 has an output of 220 mW@32Ω /> 290 mW@16Ω ) with sensitivity of headphones?
K240 mkii has sensitivity of 104 dB SPL/V, what does it mean?

 
Heya,
 
The wattage is just giving you a clue as to how much current the amp can produce at a given impedance (work). The impedance requires voltage to ramp up until it meets that work load. After that, current passes through. The wattage listed is that current passing. You'll note that as impedance (work) rises, current drops. They are inversely related. The more current that is needed, the more work an amplifier has to do. Voltage is easy. Current, takes a lot of work. It requires big power supplies and thermal regulation. Which is why big powerful amps are huge--it's all power supply basically and thermal control.
 
Sensitivity is efficiency. It's in dB/mW. That's sound pressure given per milliwatt of current. In other words, how loud it can get for the electricity provided. Higher dB/mW is louder for less energy (efficient). Lower dB/mW is less loud for the energy (inefficient). It's not linear either. Each 10 dB basically is double the perceived loudness to your ear. So even 3~4 dB/mW difference is actually profound in terms of how loud something gets for the energy. This is why something that is 104dB/mW sounds very loud for little volume on your device, and then something that is 86dB/mW sounds like a whisper, as it's almost 20 dB difference, and again, every 10 is like doubling the loudness you perceive, so it's twice that. Hence whisper. The lower the dB/mW (efficiency/sensivity), the more current the device needs to generate it's sound pressure so you can hear it. When you're in the 80's db/mw range, it takes serious current throughput, which means lots of amplification. When it's in the 90's and higher, it takes very little, so it doesn't need serious amplification and works from most things assuming voltage is available to overcome resistance (which is easy, again, voltage ramping is easy on most devices), but extreme impedance (600ohm for exmaple) does need amplification because it needs more energy to raise voltage high enough and most portable devices just can't do that from a cell battery for very long, if at all.
 
So the E17 spec is telling you that at 32ohms of impedance, it will raise voltage, and allow 220mW of current to pass constantly. At 16ohms, it raises slightly to 290mW. So at 38ohms, expect 200ish mW to pass. The HE-4 needs about 2,500 mW. More than 10 times the power. That's profound to say the least. You'll notice on some amps the power output will be higher, like a desktop amp, something that does 1.2 watts (or 1,200 mW) at 32ohms for example. This will be much better at driving a headphone with a sensitivity of 89db/mw (HE500), but still not really enough for something that is 86db/mw (HE-4). Again, for 86db/mw you'll need a lot more power, closer to 2.5 watts (2,500 mW) at 38ohms.
 
Before buying expensive equipment, you should really research what you're getting into in this hobby. The electro-chesmistry is actually 2nd year Chemistry in terms of what all this means, wattage, voltage, amps, impedance, sensivity and the units of measurement involved. Also, how they are related mathematically because you can tell everything you need from these values in terms of working mechanism. What you can't tell, is if it will sound good to you. That's where ears come in.
 
But mechanically speaking, the E17 just doesn't have the current output to properly power the HE-4.
 
As for the E09k, don't waste your money. Look at it's spec sheet on their website. 900mW at 32ohms. No where near the 2,500mW needed at 38ohms that the HE-4 is going to need. It's still under powered. Again, this why I'm stressing that this headphone is not typical. It takes a lot, read again, a lot more power than typical entry headphone amps and even a lot of mid-level amps can manage to handle. This is why people use speaker amps for this headphone.
 
If you want an ortho in this price range that you can actually use, look at the HE-400.

Very best,
 
Sep 5, 2013 at 2:46 PM Post #8 of 9
Thank you so much for your explanation and taking time to describe very well.
I would look the technical specification of the headphone, when I search for another headphone next time
L3000.gif

 
Sep 6, 2013 at 7:15 AM Post #9 of 9
  Thank you so much for your explanation and taking time to describe very well.
I would look the technical specification of the headphone, when I search for another headphone next time
L3000.gif

Not everything is lost! You can get a cheap speaker amp and a cheap recabling if you are up for it, and it will beat the hell out of your sennies. Even a cheap chinese class T speaker amp will do for a start. I am not aware of any 'cheap' headphone amps that can power the HE-4. Maybe some of Audio GD's offerings can..
 

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