[mirumu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ferraro25 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Of course, though, it sells, which goes back into my main point. If the vast majority of your source of income only cares about "loudness," then that is what you'll give them. Not decrying capitalism here, just 99%+ of people's tastes.

Does it really sell though? I mean do people go out of their way to buy these "hot" CDs whether or not they realize the difference? I've never seen any statistics showing a correlation between "hot" mastering and increased sales. Let's say we took two groups of people, those who would buy a CD based purely on the music on it (say group A) and those who wouldn't (group B). Would "hot" mastering shift a significant number of people from group B to group A? Without some kind of study I expect we'll never know but personally I don't think the numbers changing group would be that significant.

 

[Esidarap]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeagramSeven /img/forum/go_quote.gif That could have been a nice song. It was butchered beyond belief. Those distortions are indeed clipping. Take a peek at the attatched pic and you will see why that is so painful to listen to. (Keep in mind you should see a smooth, gradually-changing waveform, if it's recorded and mastered properly)

I see, so when the wave splatters against the roof is the problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PiccoloNamek /img/forum/go_quote.gif I couldn't detect any there, just by listening. If you really want to know what bad, BAD clipping sounds like, listen to this: http://www.sendspace.com/file/343mjd The static sound of the clipped peaks is plainly audible right from the get-go.

Yikes, on that one towards the beginning I hear it almost every few seconds.

Not so much towards the end of the clip though.

 

[DJGeorgeT]

I've made three short samples of Showroom Dummies in WAV for comparison. The original wasn't very good itself, but the clipped and compressed samples drive the point.

Original: http://www.sendspace.com/file/vfu3xj
Clipped: http://www.sendspace.com/file/intvmb
Compressed: http://www.sendspace.com/file/p7qy9j

 

[jmp72]

heyy! (oo yeah first post

)

Did someone listen Yngwie Malmsteen? His new record "Unleash The Fury" is the worst thing I ever heard! It's a lot too compressed!!!!

 

[SickMouthy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vul Kuolun /img/forum/go_quote.gif I read an article from an soundengineer saying something like this: "Hopes and Fears" by Keane has a higher RMS than "Raining blood" by Slayer. And Keane should not be louder than Slayer". But the true scandal is not the compression. Compression is a matter of taste (well, like ******** your pants) after all. But a clipping CD is not a CD anymore. It's simply defective. What makes it so difficult for these people to understand that it's not possible to have a sound louder than 0db pressed on the stupid CD?

The actual quote is "Levels have crept up over the last decade though, and alarmingly so. Nevermind is 6-8dB quieter than, say, Hopes & Fears by Keane—to contextualise this, those 6-8dB will make Nevermind sound approximately half as loud. On most modern CDs the music is squashed into the top 5 dB of a medium that has over 90 dB of range. It’s like the oft-quoted myth that humans use only 10% of their brain, only real—imagine what we could do if we realised potential. Think of the classic, exciting Pixies formula again—it doesn't exist anymore, because those dynamic leaps have been ironed out. Keane should NOT be twice as loud as Nirvana."

I know because I wrote it. I'll link the piece again, seeing as most people seem to be ignoring it!

http://www.stylusmagazine.com/articl...nd-forever.htm

I also wrote all these, which either tangentially or directly deal with this issue;

http://stylusmagazine.com/articles/s...y-of-sound.htm
http://stylusmagazine.com/articles/s...-revisited.htm
http://stylusmagazine.com/articles/s...tener-pt-1.htm http://stylusmagazine.com/articles/s...tener-pt-2.htm
http://stylusmagazine.com/articles/s...-music-day.htm
http://stylusmagazine.com/articles/s...97-present.htm
http://stylusmagazine.com/articles/s...97-present.htm

 

[mirumu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SickMouthy /img/forum/go_quote.gif I know because I wrote it. I'll link the piece again, seeing as most people seem to be ignoring it! http://www.stylusmagazine.com/articl...nd-forever.htm

I just took the time to read that. It's good and I agree totally. It is a shame there's no repository around listing the few modern albums going against this trend, it would be good to know where to direct our purchases in advance.

 

[Sordel]

Looking at the waveforms in Audacity is a great new game that should keep me busy for a while. I started off with "Abidan" from Masada Guitars where, as you might expect (classical guitar, simply recorded) the waveform looks great. Then, looking for a contrast, I switched to "Lithium" by Evanescence, which I fully expected to be compressed up the wazoo. Sure enough, it is: at least 75% of the track is clipped.

But, um, I love "Lithium" ... so what's this really telling me? Do I like it despite the shoddy production or because of it?

 

[DJGeorgeT]

Classical music folks. That's all that is left and is unclipped.

 

[SeagramSeven]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sordel /img/forum/go_quote.gif But, um, I love "Lithium" ... so what's this really telling me? Do I like it despite the shoddy production or because of it?

That depends if you are human or not.

If you listen to a sound that is at a near-constant level (no dynamic range), and it ALSO has lots of clipping---it will cause ear pain and headaches given enough time.

Higher volumes will accomplish the task faster.

Higher-end playback gear will actually sound worse, because it will resolve more of the "ugly details" that contribute to the pain & suffering.

Further more, it takes more than a quick-glimpse at the overall waveform to know if it's been butchered or not. The waveform may never even touch 0dB, but it can still have clipping that was introduced in other areas. Here is an example:


This sample is beyond horrible, very painful clipping is audible. However, if you simply glanced at the waveform in audacity and gave it a quick once-over, it looks fine. In fact it looks great. Only upon examining it closer however, do you realize it's horribly distorted. Listener beware!!!!

 

[SeagramSeven]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJGeorgeT /img/forum/go_quote.gif Classical music folks. That's all that is left and is unclipped.

If you are interested in non-classical music that has not been brutally-destroyed, check out Chesky Records.

They are an audiophile label that is strongly opposed to anything that "destroys" the true nature of the music. You cannot go wrong with any album they release.

Heres some chesky goodness as a taste:
(Click button that says "Free" in bottom-right)
http://rapidshare.com/files/11374184...Clip.flac.html

Sample is from this album.

 

[Sordel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeagramSeven /img/forum/go_quote.gif Furthermore, it takes more than a quick-glimpse at the overall waveform to know if it's been butchered or not.

Okay, so if I look at the waveform and it's "full to the top" that's telling me - what? - that the sound is saturated?

Then I guess that you have to look at the tips of the individual waves in detail to spot if their sharp ends are cut off: that indicates clipping? Yes/no?

 

[SeagramSeven]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sordel /img/forum/go_quote.gif Then I guess that you have to look at the tips of the individual waves in detail to spot if their sharp ends are cut off: that indicates clipping? Yes/no?

Yes

An important note is that your ear hears clipping as it accumulates---not 1 or 2 "Samples". One "Sample" is 1/44,100-th of a second. So if only 1-3 "samples" are clipped, it will not be audible to you, even with the best gear in the world. When it becomes not only audible, but severe distortion, is when those clipped samples are repeated---often. My picture two posts up shows this clearly. Not only is each "peak" clipped for 5-10 samples, it happens at nearly every peak and valley. When all these "clippings" are added up and presented to you, you hear a severe distortion that sounds like rubbing sandpaper against your ears while the song plays.

Not only is it annoying, it will give you severe headaches if you listen to it long enough, or loud enough. Most people recognize the pain it is causing on a subconscious level, and decide "I'm done listening for now" before the headache comes.

 

[Jokieman]

And we laughed at all those people who kept their old records. hehe.

 

[Vul Kuolun]

@SickMouthy:

Ooops, sorry for quoting you so badly.

I hope didn't mutilate the sense in your striking statement too much.

Funny sometimes. I would have accepted a bet with my right kidney as a wager on the subject you were talking about Slayer.

 

[Rav]

It seems ironic that the target audience for all this hot mastering mostly couldn't care less about sound quality, so would probably be just as happy with a properly mastered CD, and that would also benefit the rest of us who enjoy the fidelity.