why does everyone quit dynamic headphone to go for Stax system?
Mar 16, 2008 at 9:46 PM Post #31 of 50
Not everybody likes electrostatics, all depends on what you are looking for in music, and what kind of music you listen to. Electrostatic headphones same as speakers are said to have some problem reproducing the very low octaves, and IME they are not as punchy as the dynamics I have heard...also if I would choose one electrostatic the HE90 will be my favorite over any Stax I have heard...
 
Mar 16, 2008 at 10:04 PM Post #32 of 50
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon L /img/forum/go_quote.gif
You should sell your He60 on our sales forum so others can enjoy it. Hev70, well...


There is no enjoyment associated with the HEV70.

It is simply a matter of preference - REALLY good dynamics just aren't quite as 'crisp' a presentation as the electrostats, but also interpolate the data (as some say, more musical), where electrostats are more brutally honest in what is there, vs a little 'fudging' which we have all come to expect in less than superior speakers.

When properly amped, the (better) stats will give that little extra snap on percussion, and a level of precision that is just 'cleaner' all around.

So, depending on the genre, you may well definitely prefer one over the other, and thus find each has their place. They definitely do in my house.
 
Mar 18, 2008 at 9:29 PM Post #34 of 50
I listen to mostly rock, jazz and blues and switched to stats. I couldn't be happier. Building a system around the higher end models requires money, time and patience since there are fewer amps available and the good ones that are, usually custom jobs.

I'm a big fan of natural tone, detail and PRaT and my current Lamba setup offers all that just like the best dynamics I owned (L3000 and K1000).
 
Mar 18, 2008 at 10:16 PM Post #35 of 50
Quote:

Originally Posted by J-Pak /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I listen to mostly rock, jazz and blues and switched to stats. I couldn't be happier. Building a system around the higher end models requires money, time and patience since there are fewer amps available and the good ones that are, usually custom jobs.

I'm a big fan of natural tone, detail and PRaT and my current Lamba setup offers all that just like the best dynamics I owned (L3000 and K1000).



I agree here, since I also owned the L3000s and K1000s, and so far the Omega II with the KGSS ranks up there with both of my earlier systems.
 
Mar 18, 2008 at 10:46 PM Post #36 of 50
Not everyone leaves dynamics for 'stats. I grew up on 'stats; the SR-001 and SR-404 were my first good headphones, and I've left them for dynamics, though I am coming back to 'stats now with the EH-1.2B. Honestly, it's a matter of preference and perspective, and each system has its strengths and weaknesses. I'd say that 'stats have more high-end potential, but in the low end dynamics give you more bang for the buck.

A dynamic's main strength is excursion; the driver moves a lot of air, and that gives it a lot of tactile impact. On a good dynamic, you feel that you can literally reach out and touch the instruments. Basslines have heft and flow, and you can feel the drivers moving the air, which in turn you can feel pounding your eardrums. Some say that the thump is a coloration and truly transparent planar speakers are more accurate because they don't have it, but stand next to a drum kit, sit in the front row of an organ concert, or just simply play a grand piano, and you'll quickly realize how important heft and impact is to the realism and emotional involvement of the music.

The main problem dynamic drivers have is impulse response. There is a big, heavy voice coil hanging off the membrane, and no matter how well you drive it or how much motive force you throw at it, it will never be as quick as a nearly weightless electrostatic membrane. That means that as music becomes more dense and more complex, dynamics start losing their resolution, and everything becomes a homogenous mass of sound. On an electrostat, everything is clearly defined always, no matter how dense and hectic things get. Dynamics also tend to lose resolution as you go down the frequency range; while 'stats are detailed throughout, and even if dynamics can keep up with 'stats in treble detail (I dare you to listen to the K1k or a Qualia 010 off a good system and think otherwise) they can't keep up in bass detail.

On a 'stat, though, music seems to come out of thin air. With a dynamic, you're always inherently aware that there is a system playing back the music; with a 'stat, the system often disappears and you're left with nothing but the music. This is eerie and disconcerting at first if you are expecting to listen to a good system since you won't hear the system (or rather, it will me more difficult to hear the system) but once you adjust to it, it simply becomes a different presentation. The lack of the tactile element makes the music seem more ethereal, not necessarily thinner, but definitely less palpable, and you're inherently aware that there's something missing. At the same time, you can hear further into the recording, and a good 'stat's resolving power illuminates every dark nook and cranny of what's on the album. And as the music becomes denser, faster, and more intense, 'stats just get their groove on, while dynamics start to struggle and fall behind.

For me, neither is perfect. I've attempted to build a dynamic system with the speed of an electrostat, and it's coming along quite nicely. It's not there yet, but I'm already getting results I can live with - and there's much, much further I can go. At the same time, I'm also putting together an electrostatic system that will have some real tactile impact. At the end of the day, I'll compare the two, and decide what to do from there. I may very well end up keeping both.

Electrostats never had any magic for me, but I guess that's because I grew up with them. They certainly have spoiled me to the core, but that's the price of keeping your ears happy. Which, strangely enough, has never been the case for me until lately.
 
Mar 19, 2008 at 12:18 AM Post #37 of 50
Thank you very much for your input catscratch. I really appreciate it when more experienced members can share their opinions on subjects such as this, as it gives newbies like me a delicious taste of head-fi that's still many years down the road.

I am definitely looking forward to the day when I also get the chance to assemble a high-end electrostatic and dynamic system. I hope yours works out well!
 
Mar 19, 2008 at 12:27 AM Post #38 of 50
I have tried hard to like both electrostatic speakers and headphones and while they are transparent, IMO, they fail to convey the tonal richness, fullness and acoustical interplay of live music in a well-tuned space. I listen to mostly classical and jazz and hear live music weekly. I've had stax phones and have always come to dynamics with good amplification.

I suspect a lot of people like stax because they buy them with a stax amp and the synergy with the amp is there. It automatically works. It's a lot harder to mate a dynamic headphone with the right amp and get the best results. But when you do, dynamic phones are so natural and musical in all ways. I'd rather have a mid-priced pair of dynamics with a synergistic amp than an all-out stat set-up. However, I've not heard some of the newer stax products.
 
Mar 19, 2008 at 12:32 AM Post #40 of 50
Actually, the synergy isn't there with Stax amps. These amps are built down to a budget and simply don't have the raw output power to drive the phones properly. With the SR-404, I had substantially better results from the McAlister amp than from the SRM-313 or the SRM-007t. The McAlister had a few issues, but it was much more dynamic, open, vivid, and tactile. It was also a bit too bright, but then again it was voiced with the O2 in mind.
 
Mar 19, 2008 at 12:40 AM Post #41 of 50
I've heard many pros and cons on stax amps, but my listening experiences have only been with their higher end amps at shows and older models in general. I'm certainly open to discovering what other amps are capable of.
 
Mar 19, 2008 at 1:53 AM Post #42 of 50
I'll doubt I'll ever quit dynamics because there are simply more dynamic models out there, especially those with a closed design, which I find very important at work and also at home.

Electrostatics only have one closed model of note - the Stax 4070, which while purportedly a very good closed headphone, is also intended for studio monitoring purposes and may not be as musical compared to others such as the Omega 2.

I've heard an Omega 2, Lambda and HE60 at a meet and been impressed by them all, but not to the extent that I felt I had to purchase one or give up dynamics for one.

The HE90 I did buy and what struck me was its extremely balanced, smooth, easy going yet detailed nature. A marathon listening session headphone if ever there was one.

Right now, if I had to choose just one headphone, I believe I'd keep the R10 for practical and aesthetic reasons.

The HE90 though, would properly beat it in sound quality given equivalently good amplification.
 
Mar 19, 2008 at 6:30 AM Post #43 of 50
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fing /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I'll doubt I'll ever quit dynamics because there are simply more dynamic models out there, especially those with a closed design, which I find very important at work and also at home.

Electrostatics only have one closed model of note - the Stax 4070, which while purportedly a very good closed headphone, is also intended for studio monitoring purposes and may not be as musical compared to others such as the Omega 2.

I've heard an Omega 2, Lambda and HE60 at a meet and been impressed by them all, but not to the extent that I felt I had to purchase one or give up dynamics for one.

The HE90 I did buy and what struck me was its extremely balanced, smooth, easy going yet detailed nature. A marathon listening session headphone if ever there was one.

Right now, if I had to choose just one headphone, I believe I'd keep the R10 for practical and aesthetic reasons.

The HE90 though, would properly beat it in sound quality given equivalently good amplification.




Yes, and it much more difficult to find an excellent sounding closed headphone like the R10 to boot. I also agree with you that with the same level of amplification, the HE-90 will likely to surpass the R10 in sound quality but the R10 is a winner in my book in terms of aesthetic and late night listening.
 
Apr 18, 2008 at 7:35 AM Post #45 of 50
Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Not everyone leaves dynamics for 'stats. I grew up on 'stats; the SR-001 and SR-404 were my first good headphones, and I've left them for dynamics, though I am coming back to 'stats now with the EH-1.2B. Honestly, it's a matter of preference and perspective, and each system has its strengths and weaknesses. I'd say that 'stats have more high-end potential, but in the low end dynamics give you more bang for the buck.

A dynamic's main strength is excursion; the driver moves a lot of air, and that gives it a lot of tactile impact. On a good dynamic, you feel that you can literally reach out and touch the instruments. Basslines have heft and flow, and you can feel the drivers moving the air, which in turn you can feel pounding your eardrums. Some say that the thump is a coloration and truly transparent planar speakers are more accurate because they don't have it, but stand next to a drum kit, sit in the front row of an organ concert, or just simply play a grand piano, and you'll quickly realize how important heft and impact is to the realism and emotional involvement of the music.

The main problem dynamic drivers have is impulse response. There is a big, heavy voice coil hanging off the membrane, and no matter how well you drive it or how much motive force you throw at it, it will never be as quick as a nearly weightless electrostatic membrane. That means that as music becomes more dense and more complex, dynamics start losing their resolution, and everything becomes a homogenous mass of sound. On an electrostat, everything is clearly defined always, no matter how dense and hectic things get. Dynamics also tend to lose resolution as you go down the frequency range; while 'stats are detailed throughout, and even if dynamics can keep up with 'stats in treble detail (I dare you to listen to the K1k or a Qualia 010 off a good system and think otherwise) they can't keep up in bass detail.

On a 'stat, though, music seems to come out of thin air. With a dynamic, you're always inherently aware that there is a system playing back the music; with a 'stat, the system often disappears and you're left with nothing but the music. This is eerie and disconcerting at first if you are expecting to listen to a good system since you won't hear the system (or rather, it will me more difficult to hear the system) but once you adjust to it, it simply becomes a different presentation. The lack of the tactile element makes the music seem more ethereal, not necessarily thinner, but definitely less palpable, and you're inherently aware that there's something missing. At the same time, you can hear further into the recording, and a good 'stat's resolving power illuminates every dark nook and cranny of what's on the album. And as the music becomes denser, faster, and more intense, 'stats just get their groove on, while dynamics start to struggle and fall behind.

For me, neither is perfect. I've attempted to build a dynamic system with the speed of an electrostat, and it's coming along quite nicely. It's not there yet, but I'm already getting results I can live with - and there's much, much further I can go. At the same time, I'm also putting together an electrostatic system that will have some real tactile impact. At the end of the day, I'll compare the two, and decide what to do from there. I may very well end up keeping both.

Electrostats never had any magic for me, but I guess that's because I grew up with them. They certainly have spoiled me to the core, but that's the price of keeping your ears happy. Which, strangely enough, has never been the case for me until lately.




This is one of the most useful and informative posts i have ever read in head-fi, thank you catscratch! I too have been tempted by the allure of the electrostat world, coming from a dt880 and hd 650 background, and still wanting "more", but not having the time or money to invest in top-end amps and balanced recablings.

i realize that no headphone set-up can ever be the end-all and be-all, what with the infinite subjectivity of our chosen hobby. Im happy to hear that just as a lot have made the switch to Stax, there are also a sizeable number who still prefer dynamics over stats even after hearing some top-end stat setups. I guess the only way i can ever satisfy my curiosity is to hear a stat set up myself, but im not as lucky as some of the stateside head-fiers as in my my country, the Philippines, head-fi meets are few and far between, and such meets with high-end electrostatic headphone set-ups are rarer.

If in the end, the difference between dynamics and stats are more akin to solid-state vs tube amps, i will be very happy since although i recognize the inherent differences therein, I love my music so much that I really couldnt be bothered to note the difference in tube or opamp rolling if i am just lost in my music, nodding to my own beat.
 

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