[ssingh0]

More specifically, why does Grado 225 have better attack than Senn 580,

attack defined as:
"1) The buildup of sound when an instrument is bowed, blown, struck, or plucked.
2) The ability of a system to reproduce the attack transients in musical sound. Poor attack makes a system sound slow." (RE: Stereophile glossary)

Is it because they're bright, or because of some humped midrange frequencies? or something else

 

[recstar24]

Well, first off, the presentation of the stage is a little bit different. Senns generally sound like the stage is in front of you, whereas with grados your actually on the stage with the performers. Another analogy i like to use is that senns put you in a concert hall, whereas grados put you right in the studio. That upfrontness with grados results in a more direct and aggressive attack, a little more in your face.

However, the upper midrange definitely has a hump in it, which is one of the reasons why grados sound like the way they do, that cable is also a huge cause for why they sound so upfront.

 

[pbirkett]

I've always loved the way people say with Grado's your onstage with the performer. Thats one way to look at it... but another way could be that it simply just forces the sound into your ears from the sides... and unless you actually ARE the performers, why would you want to be onstage at a concert from a music listening perspective? I cant see why... yes it would be fun to be on stage, but not for those reasons IMHO.

Also, if you were on a stage, you'd probably more likely be alongside or behind the speakers, and it would be more muffled from that perspective.

I think its simply more accurate to say that Grado's just dont attempt any sort of soundstage. This can make them fatiguing.

Just my passing observation

 

[recstar24]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbirkett I've always loved the way people say with Grado's your onstage with the performer. Thats one way to look at it... but another way could be that it simply just forces the sound into your ears from the sides... and unless you actually ARE the performers, why would you want to be onstage at a concert from a music listening perspective? I cant see why... yes it would be fun to be on stage, but not for those reasons IMHO. Also, if you were on a stage, you'd probably more likely be alongside or behind the speakers, and it would be more muffled from that perspective. I think its simply more accurate to say that Grado's just dont attempt any sort of soundstage. This can make them fatiguing. Just my passing observation

I concur...that's why i am more partial to saying grados put you in the studio, rather than on the stage. Senns do a great job of localizing images at a distance in front of you, its part of their technology and they way they decided to voice things, for a lot of people myself included this presentation is really nice and enjoyable.

On the other hand, grados dont really bother trying to place the image in front of you, more or less its just sound pushing into your ears, you essentially get whatever the engineer wanted you to hear and how they mixed it, play some live classical with the mics far back from the stage, and you'll hear it exactly like that, play a studio recording where they only use one mic with the singer right into it with the band farther back and placed accordingly and you'll hear a very forward and centralized vocalist with the band properly staged where they belong, the senns have a tendency of making everything sound as if its front of you and away even though it may not have been recorded in that manner.

 

[saint.panda]

I think the attack has to do with both the inherent technical capability of a transducer as well as the frequency response, which can make certain attacks more apparent to the listener.

Just a speculation on the technical abilities regarding attack:

One issue has to do with the slew rate of an amp because on very good amps I've never perceived Sennheiser as slow.

High impedance headphones such as the HD 650 require more voltage swing at a given signal whereas low impedance headphones such as Grados require more current.

Slew rate is the derivative of voltage over the derivate of time so time is indirect propertional to the slew rate. Time is proportional to voltage but indirect proportional to slew rate. So the better the slew rate (= the higher the value), the lesser time to build up a note. Let's say slew rate = 10 V/s, HD 600 needs 5V, Grado needs 1 V so the time is shorter for the Grado. Of course, this model has some serious flaws because according to this simplified model the time to build up a note will always be less on the lesser impedance headphone because my model is a constant function. Since the slew rate is an indicator for how fast the system can respond to a given signal, the function has to be somehow convergent in nature. Maybe somebody with more knowledge on these matters can add a more insightful analysis of the problem.
So bottom line, a less stellar amp cannot provide higher impedance headphones such as the HD 600 with the required voltage quickly enough (derivative...) for the transducer to respond to the input signal.

edit: Regarding the technical abilities, I'm sure there's more to it than just slew rate. For example, damping factor is another issue which comes to mind.

 

[Ken]

what you have are the 2 types of headphones. two different systems of delivering sound

sens have gone for the singing in the bathroom effect. you know how you sound better when you sing in the bathroom well sens are that way.
by pulling the ear speakers of your headphones away from your head the sound stage is created and everything sounds better , just like singing in the bathroom. and to some that appeals . It certainly feels like it sounds better. but there is a cost and that is impact and detail delivery.
This is easy to test , just as you listen to your headphones slowly lift them away from your head as you listen, they get clearer {and if you turn the volume up to compensate for volume drop} you will find you headphone sound becomes very clear and has more so called sounds stage.
Then the grado put the ear speaker right up to your ear as close as possible and the result of that is so called soundstage is gone and you hear the music the way it was recorded , then you hear people say about Grado that you are on the stage.
So you have to decide if you want the unaltered sound that Grado go for , you choose Grado. That’s why Grado have a reputation for high impacting sound

But if you want headphones that are speaker like sounding with soundstage ect go for sens

 

[PeterR]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint.panda Let's say slew rate = 10 V/s

Whoa. I know it was just an example, but it should be noted that typically slew rate is given in V/us (=1.000.000 V/s). You can calculate the maximum frequency an amp can deliver into a certain load at a certain power as follows:

fmax=SR/(6.28*Epeak)
Epeak=(2*P*Rload)^0.5

with SR=slew rate, P=output power, and Rload=load resistance.
For example, 10mW (loud) into a 300 Ohm load with a slew rate of 10V/us (rather serene):
Epeak=2.4 V
fmax=649747 /s = 650 kHz

Same for a 32 Ohm load:
Epeak=0.8 V
fmax=1989436 1/s = 1989 kHz

I leave it up to you whether this may be significant when trying to reproduce signals from a CD limited to 20 kHz.

I don't think we need to look much further than the frequency response of the cans:

 

[saint.panda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken by pulling the ear speakers of your headphones away from your head the sound stage is created and everything sounds better , just like singing in the bathroom. and to some that appeals . It certainly feels like it sounds better. but there is a cost and that is impact and detail delivery. (...) So you have to decide if you want the unaltered sound that Grado go for , you choose Grado. That’s why Grado have a reputation for high impacting sound

One reason why the Grados lack soundstage is because they are supraaural in nature. As such the music does not interact greatly with the outer ear, which is very important for creating HRTF related directional cues. Whether this is the unaltered sound is rather subjective but I would say no because there is soundstage on the recording.
Also, it's true that high frequencies are attenuated by air and the Grados have a different frequency response but because the Grados have more HF doesn't mean they're faster, only that the HF are louder. Loudness doesn't correlate with speed, maybe with perceived speed.

edit: By the way, I hope this doesn't turn into another heated Grado/Senn debate. It's all imo and my o is severely limited by knowledge. Don't take anything serious coming from somebody who gives a slew rate figure of 10 V/s

edit2: Those calculations make good sense but then, why is slew rate regarded as so important? According those calculation, the time difference should be minimal.

edit3: To answer my own question about slew rate: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...threadid=47277

 

[hugz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbirkett I've always loved the way people say with Grado's your onstage with the performer. Thats one way to look at it... but another way could be that it simply just forces the sound into your ears from the sides... and unless you actually ARE the performers, why would you want to be onstage at a concert from a music listening perspective? I cant see why... yes it would be fun to be on stage, but not for those reasons IMHO. Also, if you were on a stage, you'd probably more likely be alongside or behind the speakers, and it would be more muffled from that perspective. I think its simply more accurate to say that Grado's just dont attempt any sort of soundstage. This can make them fatiguing. Just my passing observation

I think you're taking the phrase a bit literally.

 

[recstar24]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hugz I think you're taking the phrase a bit literally.

I concur.

 

[Daroid]

Because Grados are brighter (apparently), speed becomes the result of emphasized treble, and treble fluctuation ?

 

[braillediver]

Lower impedance / resistance makes it easier to get the driver moving quicker?

Damping factor would relate to the ability of the amp to control the driver once it’s moving.

Grados more accurately reflect the way the session was mic’d.


“another way could be that it simply just forces the sound into your ears from the sides”

What type of headphones are you listening to that don’t send the sound into your ears from the sides?


Mitch

 

[hentai]

i also have similar thoughts , even sr80 has more impact than hd555, you can play hd555 loud but at same loudness sr80 still has the kick.

but something not rite with all grados which is they don sound as spacious .

if there is a spacious sounding grado , wooohooo it beats all sort of headphones

 

[aerius]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssingh0 More specifically, why does Grado 225 have better attack than Senn 580, attack defined as: "1) The buildup of sound when an instrument is bowed, blown, struck, or plucked. 2) The ability of a system to reproduce the attack transients in musical sound. Poor attack makes a system sound slow." (RE: Stereophile glossary)

It doesn't, it just seems that way because of the frequency response and apparent distance to the vitual stage. The 225's do have better bass impact thanks to a slight hump in the bass compared to the Senns, a bass drum or tympani for instance will hit harder on the Grado.

 

[10068]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hentai if there is a spacious sounding grado , wooohooo it beats all sort of headphones

what about replacing the pads?

From my experience, Grados sound very flat. too flat. There is no soundstage at all, thus it sounds totally unlike a speaker. BUT, I imagine with "bowl" pads or wahtever they are called, which pull the drivers a little bit away from your ear, you might be able to get best of both worlds. sort of like a senn cable upgrade

plus i heard the 225's recabled with Headphile silver a while back, that made them sound pretty sweet.

this thread is making me crave Grados... you bastards, i've already wasted enough money on this stupid site!!! i'm craving them for 4 reasons:

1) people say it accurately portrays the mic'ing of a session, which i think is cool. transparency is good, as long as it's not to the point of losing out on musicality

2) bit more bass slam and "rocking out" quality than senns, is good. senns can be a bit un-detailed, mellow/timid to me sometimes.

3) i've heard Kevin Gilmore designed his amps with Grados in mind... and hey, i own a v2se

4) i'm interested to hear the "on the stage w/musicians" thing... because my most pleasurable listening experience was with Stream of Consciousness, by Dream Theater. for some reason that day, i felt as though i WAS the drummer, playing along with the band. perhaps that doesn't make sense, but it was oh-so blissful

I HATE HEADFI. my wallet is crying. :'-(

cheers