[iXpertMan]

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here read this 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumerism

LOL!
 

 
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A lot of research goes into creating and fine-tuning of IEMs. It's not just a matter of putting together a bunch of plastic and metal and calling it an IEM - probably that's what you get when you pay $5 for one.
 
If the manufacturer is serious about sound, they would experiment with different technology (armature, dynamic, etc), different materials (for drivers, casing, wiring), assembly methods, different sound configurations, orientation of drivers, tuning and testing  - all that takes a huge amount of effort and time - all of which put together costs money. They also put in a lot of effort into innovation and new technology.
 
On top of that these micro-machines have to be engineered to produce so many different frequencies with their limited size/space, which as Migou67 rightly put involves a huge cost in itself.
 
There is an element of demand and supply here as well - bulk of the consumer grade IEMs will certainly get cheaper in the future as demand grows, but the high end audiophile models - which are always at the forefront of technology - would always be expensive.
 
To be honest if I compare my CK10 with a cheap $5 IEM, I can easily see and hear where all that money went. The premium quality of materials used for the cables, the plug, the titanium casings, the soft rubbery plastic, the strain reliefs, the carry case and most importantly the sound. You can feel the amount of research and innovation that went into the creation of these little gems - and all of that effort costs money.
 
Would I call the CK10 expensive - yes, but are they worth every single penny - MOST DEFINITELY!! I'm sure the same is the case with most (but unfortunately not all) high-end IEMs.
 
EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm not saying that all IEM manufacturer's follow this model - and a number of them out there simply put together the innovation of other companies and produce their own versions, while still pricing them at the same level - they possibly use the money for other things like marketing and advertising.

I don't agree with the materials, the plastic is the main component for housing and costs nearly nothing to make, the wiring is also a joke while the driver on the other hand has a very dark background behind it since no-one can tell how much each costs. I really doubt that the assembly costs much either since only a few things need to be put together (not like in a computer with so many different microchips, capacitors, resistors etc...).
And as for the research, the research of what how well they sound after-all? All you need is a microphone to tell you that.
Really would like a more detailed explanation of what they research...
 
 

 

[kiteki]

Haha, you only need a microphone? easier to build than a computer?
 
 
It takes longer to build a custom IEM than it does to build an entire DIY computer, and the microphones they use cost minimum $2000 USD.
 
 
I have told you what the drivers cost, the Etymotic ER-4 driver costs about $17 USD and the company is called Knowles, the exact model number is ED-29689 I think, why don't you buy the driver and put the plastic and cable together and save $200?
 
The Etymotic ER-4 has been out for what, 20 years now? You'd think someone would have done that by now.

 

[kiteki]

 
By the way computers and mobile phones are an unfair comparison, they are mass-produced in China with robotics and workers that are paid 50 cents per hour.
 
I understand you think IEM's are expensive when you can buy a smartphone for $200, yes that makes sense, but what to do? IEM's are still a niche product, you can only wait until the competition increases etc.
 
I bought my UE700 for $99 and I think that's a perfectly reasonable price for it's sound quality and everything btw, and if I tried to DIY it, it would cost about the same.
 
By the way most smartphones only cost about $15 to make.
 

 

[Eric_C]

iXpertMan: I recall you starting another thread on equalising, in which you asked why people don't EQ their headphones and speakers since all headphones and speakers can be EQ'd to be flat. Why don't you try EQ'ing your headphones? It will give you a starting idea of how easy/difficult tuning is. 
 
You've also casually ignored everything Kiteki and I said about market forces, as well as the need to pay the people who work on making earphones.

 

[nipit]

Quote:

By the way most smartphones only cost about $15 to make.
 

Which ones?

 
 

 

[kiteki]

I dunno that stuff is secret, but it's commonly known that Nike shoes cost $1 to make and sell for $200, as another example.

 

[iXpertMan]

Quote:

iXpertMan: I recall you starting another thread on equalising, in which you asked why people don't EQ their headphones and speakers since all headphones and speakers can be EQ'd to be flat. Why don't you try EQ'ing your headphones? It will give you a starting idea of how easy/difficult tuning is. 
 
You've also casually ignored everything Kiteki and I said about market forces, as well as the need to pay the people who work on making earphones.

Sorry but I am a total 'noob' in audio, and could hardly tell the difference between a 192kb/s recording (MP3) and a 1411kb/s recording (FLAC) therefore I am not the person who'll hear the difference. However I read that people are always complaining about this that these and those, and while the company investigates how well their headphones/earphones perform they must look at its frequency curve and see where it looses or adds too many dbs. By using this curve you can then adjust your equalizer accordingly and so get a FLAT FREQUENCY CURVE (in theory), but again I don't know much about audio therefore I am just looking to see if I am right or wrong, and why?
 
And as for people who make the earphones I don't understand why that is hard and since all is made in China it must be cheap. The people I think don't actually manufacture the components, robots do that, the people just put things together which from my point of view doesn't take much time (yet I don't know for sure). China labour is cheap how can it be expensive?
 
 

 

[Eric_C]

EQ'ing doesn't depend on your ability to tell the difference between MP3 and FLAC, so really, why not give it a shot? Have you tried reading up on the process?
 
Earphones aren't all made in China. For example, Etymotic manufactures their products in Illinois, USA (as Kiteki has pointed out). 
Even if we're only talking about China-made earphones, and we assume robots do all the work, don't the robots cost money? Who chooses the robots? Who handles the purchase orders that come in? Who corresponds with suppliers and customers? Who designs the aesthetics? Who decides how to market the earphones? 
These are all processes that involve people, and people's time is compensated for with money. You're basically suggesting that all these people should not be paid anything beyond the cost of the raw materials--which is to say that their time is worthless. Why should any company operate at cost? Nobody would work for such a company, and it would fold.

 

[kiteki]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iXpertMan /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Sorry but I am a total 'noob' in audio, and could hardly tell the difference between a 2. 192kb/s recording (MP3) and a 1411kb/s recording (FLAC) therefore I am not the person who'll hear the difference. However I read that people are always complaining about this that these and those, and while the company investigates how well their headphones/earphones perform they must look at its frequency curve and see where it looses or adds too many dbs. By using this curve you can then adjust your equalizer accordingly and so get a 3. FLAT FREQUENCY CURVE (in theory), but again I don't know much about audio therefore I am just looking to see if I am right or wrong, and why?
 
And as for people who make the earphones I don't understand why that is hard and since 1. all is made in China it must be cheap. The people I think don't actually manufacture the components, robots do that, the people just put things together which from my point of view doesn't take much time (yet I don't know for sure). China labour is cheap how can it be expensive?
 

1. As I have pointed out, most headphones and IEM's are designed in Europe, America or Japan, the drivers in balanced armature IEM's are made in Illinois, USA or somewhere in Denmark, most products are made in China in the end, but as I wrote two posts above a Nike shoe costs $1 to make in Vietnam and it sells for $200 in USA, right?
 
2. Sound quality has little to do with bitrate.
 
3. Sound quality has little to do with a flat FR.
 

You have some healthy skepticism and curiosity but the stuff you're saying is incorrect and a bit naive.
 
 
Edit: If you want to try a 100% "made in China" earphone "value for money" with cheap plastic materials, you can buy a Yuin OK3 or Vsonic GR06 on ebay.

 

[goodvibes]

 
Quote:

The material used for the housing as far as I can tell is glossy plastic which is nowhere near rear. Also the high micro precision of what, the housing? If the housing then there is no precision, plastic is simply moulded which is relatively accurate and fast. The only thing that might be hard to make is/are the armature driver(s), but I can't find there prices anywhere...
 
I don't understand why are you all laughing at Dr. Dre? Is it because he does too much advertisement and his headphones are terrible sounding and way-overpriced?

I guess you don't understand what a die costs to make and maintain plus run time. Highend IEMs do not sell in huge #s and those prices need to be amortized. More than pennies per case as there will be a few unique dies to make one and any failed attempts will be part of the R&D costs. How many drivers, configs and man hours involved to get a truly high end product that sells in relatively small #s needs to be figured in. Better companies often prefer proper local distribution and need to support more staff instead of overseas mail order. If you don't appreciate local service or brick and mortar dealers that allow audition and recommendation after feedback, then be sure not to have issue with long distance service and waits. It's often those that complain about price etc will be first to have issue with poor service that often accompanies it.
 
Individual BAs cost multiple of $10 each. Somebody has to make and test with salary and insurance. Some companies even actually have employees. The idea that smart people willing to sacrifice some profit to follow a dream with a devotion to making good things shouldn't be properly compensated is silly. You can make more money by selling $10 Skull candies in huge #s. If you don't like it, don't buy and or make your own and see if you could ever do as well making a multiple BA after spending 4 figures in attempts.
 
You bring up multi driver BAs when single driver dynamics is where companies are making their killings. Not all as some have very unique drivers but others are just one driver which cost considerably less to acquire than any BA and still results in a $400 iem. Cough, Monster, Cough. Much of that money is in advertising that you don't see by Shure, Westone, Phonak etc. Even with that said, If a Monster sounds better to you, they're still worth what they can get. If you don't get it or hear differences in files due to any # of reasons, don't spend the money. After all Cheap IEMs fit all your criteria or do you think they make them worse on purpose. Distortion, control, resonance and resolution are meaningless. LOL
 

 

[nikp]

Why? It's the same reason why laptops are more expensive than desktop computers (sort of).
 
 

 

[iXpertMan]

Quote:

1. As I have pointed out, most headphones and IEM's are designed in Europe, America or Japan, the drivers in balanced armature IEM's are made in Illinois, USA or somewhere in Denmark, most products are made in China in the end, but as I wrote two posts above a Nike shoe costs $1 to make in Vietnam and it sells for $200 in USA, right?
 
2. Sound quality has little to do with bitrate.
 
3. Sound quality has little to do with a flat FR.
 

You have some healthy skepticism and curiosity but the stuff you're saying is incorrect and a bit naive.
 
 
Edit: If you want to try a 100% "made in China" earphone "value for money" with cheap plastic materials, you can buy a Yuin OK3 or Vsonic GR06 on ebay.

 
 
1) -
2) Sound Quality has somewhat to do with bitrate and if you read the forum people agree that using a lossless format is better (obviously the recording counts too).
3) The whole idea of sound reproduction is to achieve the FLAT FREQUENCY CURVE, so not necessarily the sound quality, but how natural and even it sounds is affected.
 


Quote:

 


I guess you don't understand what a die costs to make and maintain plus run time. Highend IEMs do not sell in huge #s and those prices need to be amortized. More than pennies per case as there will be a few unique dies to make one and any failed attempts will be part of the R&D costs. How many drivers, configs and man hours involved to get a truly high end product that sells in relatively small #s needs to be figured in. Better companies often prefer proper local distribution and need to support more staff instead of overseas mail order. If you don't appreciate local service or brick and mortar dealers that allow audition and recommendation after feedback, then be sure not to have issue with long distance service and waits. It's often those that complain about price etc will be first to have issue with poor service that often accompanies it.
 
Individual BAs cost multiple of $10 each. Somebody has to make and test with salary and insurance. Some companies even actually have employees. The idea that smart people willing to sacrifice some profit to follow a dream with a devotion to making good things shouldn't be properly compensated is silly. You can make more money by selling $10 Skull candies in huge #s. If you don't like it, don't buy and or make your own and see if you could ever do as well making a multiple BA after spending 4 figures in attempts.
 
You bring up multi driver BAs when single driver dynamics is where companies are making their killings. Not all as some have very unique drivers but others are just one driver which cost considerably less to acquire than any BA and still results in a $400 iem. Cough, Monster, Cough. Much of that money is in advertising that you don't see by Shure, Westone, Phonak etc. Even with that said, If a Monster sounds better to you, they're still worth what they can get. If you don't get it or hear differences in files due to any # of reasons, don't spend the money. After all Cheap IEMs fit all your criteria or do you think they make them worse on purpose. Distortion, control, resonance and resolution are meaningless. LOL
 

 
I agree the the Monster's are overpriced, but so are others like: Shure, Westone...etc. The W1 for example costs 100 EURO, the W2 which has the same everything plus an extra driver and crossover costs twice as much, why is that so? The testing and work amount was already included in the W1 price tag, the extra driver costs 20 euro and the crossover well another 20 euro, so 150 euro would be a fair deal, but no they add an extra 50 euro (for WHAT?)
 
 

 

[goodvibes]

They sell fewer of them as they go up in price. It's economy of scale. Why Porches cost more than Volkswagons. Porches are considered bargains of the high end car world.

 

[iXpertMan]

Quote:

They sell fewer of them as they go up in price. It's economy of scale. Why Porches cost more than Volkswagons. Porches are considered bargains of the high end car world.

So the reason why the high-end IEMs are expensive is because the company simply, artificially increases their price to get a bigger profit. Ok. But why do low-end IEMs cost a hell of a lot as-well? The W1 especially, instead of 100 euros, they could be sold for 75 euro or 50 euro (even better) and more people would buy thus higher profits.
 

 

[Blue Boat]

Quote:

Hello!
I am looking to buy an IEM for Christmas but the prices seem very high for just a small piece of plastic and a bit of metal, so can anyone please explain to me why?
 
Basically an IEM consists of (from what I see):
1) Housing (plastic)
2) Armature Driver(s)
3) Crossover
4) Wiring & Cables
5) In-ear tips (foam, plastic etc.)
6) Packaging (box & accessories)
 
Now from the six parts which I've mentioned how can you possibly get something to cost 200 EURO? I imagine the housing costs like 1 euro to make, the cables and wires aren't that expensive too, the tips cost like 5 euros, the packaging another 5 euros, and the work like another 5 euros, therefore around 25-50 Euros for the IEM. I agree that some engineering went into making it, but so did into a computer and for 200 Euro I can buy myself a good PC.
***I can't find how much an armature driver costs and if anyone can please tell me.***
 
So from what I can see the maximum price should be 100 Euro, can someone prove me wrong why an IEM like Westone 2 costs twice that (even with the two drivers)?

For companies that make only IEMs (as in Westone, UE, JH), they need to cover their employees' salaries, electricity bill, and other types of bills related to running a place. For companies that make other stuff (Sony), then it's probably the RnD and marketing costs. Manufacturing costs should be very minimal due to size. Plastic housing can be easily molded. Metals can be CNC'd if they mass produce.