Used oscilloscope
Jun 10, 2008 at 10:38 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 15

6RS

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Hi
I would love to get an oscilloscope for my DIY work (FM tuners, automobile electrics, amplifiers, learn more about circuits DIY etc.).
There are tons of used ones for sale. However, I am kind of clueless.
How much does one have to spend? Which brand? What options? Are they maintenance-intense?
Do you have any recommendations, and good advice?
Thank you very much!
 
Jun 11, 2008 at 6:04 AM Post #2 of 15
Hi,

I bought myself an old scope on ebay (which was a little bit since I did not know anything about oscis at that time - and have only little learned till now). It was an 30 year old 30Mhz Device from HP (no LEDS - real electric lights). It costs about 50€ (~75$).
It works perfectly. Probably it is not very calibrated. But I cannot imagin working without it. And the quality is perfect (I even debug my micrcontroller stuff with it, analyzing measurements at 1Mhz).
I can completely recommend buy old top notch stuff.
 
Jun 11, 2008 at 8:51 AM Post #3 of 15
Quote:

Originally Posted by _atari_ /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Hi,

I bought myself an old scope on ebay. It was an 30 year old 30Mhz Device from HP (no LEDS - real electric lights). It costs about 50€ (~75$).
It works perfectly. Probably it is not very calibrated. But I cannot imagin working without it. And the quality is perfect (I even debug my micrcontroller stuff with it, analyzing measurements at 1Mhz).
I can completely recommend buy old top notch stuff.



That's good news!
Thanks.
 
Jun 11, 2008 at 10:26 AM Post #4 of 15
Many recommend the tektronix 465B as an excellent older style scope for home use. Great build quality, many parts available and just as importantly, theres lots of DIYers using them which means you have more of a chance of getting an answer if you post a Q.

Fran
 
Jun 12, 2008 at 9:52 AM Post #7 of 15
I have been checking ebay.
There are quite a few Tektronix 465B.
Some come without probes: Would you rather buy with probe and spend more?
Some are calibrated, would you avoid un-calibrated?
There additions like opt05 opt07? What does that mean?
Some have an additional digital read-out unit on top, there also seem to exist different versions? Is this needed, or dispensable? If yes, which version is best?
Sorry, i know, many questions... but there are some real knowledgeable folks here, so any insights would be appreciated.
Thanks, Bruno
 
Jun 12, 2008 at 2:19 PM Post #8 of 15
Quote:

Originally Posted by 6RS /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I have been checking ebay.
There are quite a few Tektronix 465B.
Some come without probes: Would you rather buy with probe and spend more?



If they are Tek probes (the proper ones, do some digging) wnd they are in good shape with the ground clips and the grabber clip, then this would be worth it (within reason).
Quote:

Originally Posted by 6RS /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Some are calibrated, would you avoid un-calibrated?


I wouldn't, particularly if the seller was charging alot for the calibration and it was more than 1 year out. There are conflicting views on calibration however. If you can find one that is calibrated, chances are it works (the scope).
Quote:

Originally Posted by 6RS /img/forum/go_quote.gif
There additions like opt05 opt07? What does that mean?
Some have an additional digital read-out unit on top, there also seem to exist different versions? Is this needed, or dispensable? If yes, which version is best?
Sorry, i know, many questions... but there are some real knowledgeable folks here, so any insights would be appreciated.
Thanks, Bruno



I'm not sure what all the options are. The unit on top is a built in DMM (or built on is more correct... I think it was something like a DMM44?). I personally would not want it; I use a separate HP3468b bench DMM and a handheld or two.
 
Jun 12, 2008 at 6:56 PM Post #9 of 15
Good thread.
As I get deeper into all of this, I often consdier a scope, so nice to see it would be useful and not terribly expensive. Once I get into a larger workspace, voila!
 
Jun 13, 2008 at 3:31 AM Post #10 of 15
Forgive me being a little glib. Someone has to offer alternatives. I'm not that knowledgeable, just a hobbyist, so take this with a grain or mine of salt.

I wouldn't take a first scope purchase too seriously. Any working scope is more than adequate for audio. The only thing you'll find too useful to pass up is dual channel. There are plenty of options. By the time you learn how to use it... Put that another way... By the time you need something more, you won't need to ask. So getting off on the cheap now isn't really a bad idea. Hitachi comes to mind for low priced scopes.

The 465b is pretty standard, so it's the safe choice. I own a 475, which some people don't like because it has unobtanium parts. The truth of that is closer to... after you see the prices for those parts, you'll be looking for a dead 465 or 475 for the parts... same difference.

I'd love to get my hands on an hp 130 or thereabouts. I had one years ago. Nice small, simple tube thing. Orange phosphor that glowed for 15 second. Built like a truck, and nearly student proof. The theoretical limit was 500kHz, but they could do as much as 2MHz. They're not so easy to find, though. Maybe noone that has one would sell it.

On a tight budget--and not counting the Hitachi--I'd get a Tektronix 453 or 454. They're like $50us, and they don't use proprietary parts, so you can find parts if you ever want to fix them--not true of the later Tektronix scopes, 465 included. The 453 is that last Tektronix to use tubes, but later versions of the 453 upgraded until some were 100% solid state. Check out the museum: The Museum of Tektronix Scopes

With a bit more money than needed for the 465, and stepping up to more features--and if you have the space and a really strong table to put it on--I'd go with the 7000 mainframe series 7000 Plugin list. I'm actually considering buying one of these, though I don't recommend this for normal people. Lunatics only. There's some great plug-in modules for it, like a curve tracer, spectrum analyzer, and logic analyzer. It could actually end up a bit expensive after getting all those cool plug-ins, but they're very useful plugins. Another option to consider is the 2465, which had issues with one of the proprietary chips--some people swear by them, others swear at them. After that comes something made this millenium.

Just for kicks... some of those older tube scopes are a lot of fun if you have space and can bring it home from somewhere local. Good luck finding the tubes, though--some are really hard. I used to have a Tektronix 555 or similar model eBay Guides - A Guide to Tektronix Dual Beam Oscilloscopes . Dig that dual beam. Mine only had a single dual-trace amp and an empty space. It ended up in the trash along with the hp. sigh!

Of course, you'll need probes. For headphone work, get one of those 10-1 switchable probes. In fact, get two for the dual traces. Any cheap ones should be fine, but you might want to stick to decent brands. You'll also need a 100x (maybe a 10x-100x) if you work with tubes or high voltage. I usually buy probes from ProbeMaster because they have some cool extras. If you get the 465B, it's 100MHz, so get at least 100MHz capable probes. That way you'll have a nice quality set to go with your nice scope. To be honest though, for audio work, I don't mind making my own probes. It's hard to screw up at 20kHz. For digital work, you probably need to be a bit more careful. Take a DAC running at 192kHz, then to get a good picture, you want at least 10 times that, so all of 2MHz. Maybe not a lot compared to a 100MHz scope, but I'd probably skip the DIY probes for this. (Actually, what's the clock speed on those things?)

As for calibration, think about what a scope is--it's a picture of a dynamic waveform. If you can't see anything wrong, you don't need it any better calibrated. There are some tests you can do that generate specific waveforms. As long as the pictures look right, and a known voltage ends up at the right height, it's okay. You also want to check the horizontal, so run a known frequency across it and do the math. If your eye and calculator add up roughly, you're good. Calibration becomes more important for fancier scopes and fancier work, and you're more likely to use a separate tool for those things--for example, a frequency counter or a good DMM. The only thing I'm seriously hesitant about is phase, as in the two channels need to be in sync, but there's probably some simple test for that, too. Probably, few hobbyists with low end scopes bother calibrating unless it's obviously out of whack

By the way, given your interests--FM tuners, automobile electrics, amplifiers, learn more about circuits DIY etc.--you might want to get a copy of this book: Manual of Electronic Servicing Test and Measurements (Spiral-bound)
by Robert C. Jr Genn
 
Jun 13, 2008 at 3:58 AM Post #11 of 15
The 7000 series Tektronix scopes are pretty nice. I bought one about a month or two ago, and it has been serving me well. It is big, but not as bad as I was afraid. It was $200+tax, local pickup. I really wouldnt have wanted to have this beast shipped.
tek7704a.jpg
 
Jun 13, 2008 at 4:46 AM Post #13 of 15
Wait to call me a lunatic until I have ordered the stuff I need to use this as a TDR for optimizing my SPDIF circuits.
tongue.gif


That said, you are completely right about some of the parts in these scopes. Some very nice looking stuff they used in there. Only have a single 225mhz amp channel, and a dual 200mhz amp, along with a delayed and a normal time base unit. Definitely need to get/build a measurement preamplifier for this, and that is something I think would be useful for most DIYers with scopes.
 
Jun 13, 2008 at 6:48 AM Post #14 of 15
I got a 465B! Off ebay, from US seller, calibrated but no probes. Shipping to Switzerland is 160$. However, still worth it. Around here, they are asking 1000$ for a used one. I hope nobody falls for it...
That 7000 looks very impressive!
Thanks, Bruno
 
Jun 13, 2008 at 2:22 PM Post #15 of 15
Quote:

Originally Posted by cetoole /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The 7000 series Tektronix scopes are pretty nice. I bought one about a month or two ago, and it has been serving me well. It is big, but not as bad as I was afraid. It was $200+tax, local pickup. I really wouldnt have wanted to have this beast shipped.


Wow, $200 seems like a steal for that scope.

I used to use one those in the vibrations/controls lab when I was going to school. The plugin's where a cool feature, and they had a good collection of them.
 

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