[hopkins]

Have you used a 2 pc solution? I would think in that case the use of SSD versus HD versus USB for music storage would be of less consequence.

 

[goodvibes]

 
I am not sure what else you could expect - it was a complete tangent.
 
Yes I have heard and owned pardo supplies, together with my Naim gear, and they are very good; although different from Naim.
 
We don't yet know how good or bad The Core is, I hope it is excellent. However, the SQ that is being supplied by via AOIP, USB chains, etc is in no way inferior to Naim IMO. Naim has the advantage of being a single supplier and so has sorted many issues ....at a price.
 
M

I have heard it and it is great as a stand alone with DAC.. unlike it's forebearer Serve which was best only as UPNP server/ripper.
 
For a PC setup, my budget preference would be a TC Electronic Impact Twin with a linear PS of choice. Needs to be 1A or higher.

Use a high quality Firewrie cable to PC and Dig out cable to your DAC of choice. The internal DAC is Ok and will get you by until you want to improve. This type of setup is what I used 10 years ago with the Konnekt 8. Firewire is less viable in today's world but can still be added to PCs and most better laptops. I'd recommend a card that uses Intel chips. I used Wavelab with Wav files as player but that doesn't fit the cheap and cheerful so I'd use a  small footprint or alternatively, memory player that can interface via ASIO. Something like Foobar or one of the tweek players vs J.River or Itunes. It's been a while but I believe the TC is best setup via it's DAW option. Not as intuitive as consumer products but also not that difficult. I'd keep the firewire cable of better quality and short to help the clock and player coordinate better. 
 
TC Konnekt uses the Dice II chipset and is the company that developed and patented JET jitter prevention technology that the OP was so heads over heals about in the VOIP thread. It's used here in it's optimized form, as a remote powered sound card via the 1394 interface which is required for the Jet tech (vs usb). It's been adapted for voip as a viable studio convenience but it's better as used this way if all your ducks are in a row. It can be adapted to Thunderbolt but I I'm not familiar with that interface so have no comment. This is the same interface used by Weiss products like the INT202 interface and DACs. There are also sound cards that use it but they will be bus powered etc.
 
That's it, no voicing things a hundred different ways until you find the one that blends well with your kit, no reclocking (guessing) required unless you want to change bit rate which I don't recommend, no reinventing the wheel and the lowest jitter with best transfer available from a PC at the price. All IMO of course. 
 
Not what I use now to just listen but when wanting to hear what's mixed properly from a PC, using a Weiss INT202 with linear supply, dig out to my fav DAC is the best I've found and I started in a similar place 10 years back when Itunes via tos out was thought to be perfect by the interwebs. I still think it's the most correct way to play a PC on a budget.

​
 
Things like better supplies and SSDs with their lower current draw and lack of vibration always help here but this is, for me, fundamentally better than anything USB though it seems fine for music file access.
I thought I would add this since it's very related to the forum and just wanted to get it out there without starting a thread. Happy Holidays!

 

 

[rb2013]

  Expected response. Linear PS including what runs the USB ports and drive options, purpose built codecs, FW and control app. Proper single galvanised 75 ohm BNC output. Instead of fixing PC problems, try not having them for a change.

 
 
Have you heard a Pardo supply? I LOL'd and felt sad for those that bought at the same time. Not quite up to speed if you get my drift.
 
I'm out as this is a computer audio forum and while the Core will interface via file share and store it's probably stretching the intent here. I always felt this forum useful for those on a budget and trying to get the most for the least. Once you get to kilodollars(besides the PC) and Rube Goldberg rigs, I personally believe other options become more viable.
 
Enjoy your journey. It hasn't ended and experimentation is fun. Try not to be so angry.

I'm not angry - just shinning a light on the 'Naim' cult.  I have heard much Naim gear and was never impressed - esp for the insane dollars they charge. 
 
How they sold those BS LM317 (180uv of noise) based Naim HiCap - that they charged like $2000 for. 
 
Then charged another $700 to 'upgrade' from the lowly LM317 LDO to a discrete design - with the DR. 

http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/naim-audio-discrete-regulator-upgrade/
 

Expecting there to be a steady stream of loyal followers seeking shifting from a power supply regulator on a chip to a discrete-component regulator module, the company was taken aback by the torrent. “Please don’t review it yet,” was the plaintive cry from the company’s PR man, “we can’t make ‘em fast enough!”

Put simply, the DR upgrade is replacing the original LM317 power supply regulator chip with an all-discrete module; a two inch by one inch or so circuit board of surface mount devices, tantalum caps and heatsinks. It looks like the kind of MacGuffin James Bond would either have to extract or plug in somewhere just before the bad guy’s secret base exploded. The change is claimed to improve impulse response and lower noise across the board. According to Naim, the development of this new circuit took two years, to ensure it didn’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. The small army of Naim modders have been using discrete regulation in their power supplies for some time, but some of these have create a radical change away from the core Naim sound in the process. This might well be great for those modders (what better way of putting your stamp on a hot-rodded product than to fundamentally change the sound?), but Naim Audio didn’t want to change the sound, just enhance it. 

 
So $2700 for a power supply that is probably not a good as the $150 Copper clad R-Core discrete regulation 11uv MEIYAN.
 
I do give them some credit for showing what better linear power supplies can do to SQ. 

 So far, so LM317-equipped HiCap. What about the DR upgrades to that power supply? Interestingly, I found the DR upgrade to be one of those rare and blindingly obvious all-things-to-all-people kind of upgrades. This makes the Naim sound perhaps address some of the criticisms levelled at the brand by its detractors – the imaging, and especially the mid-band transparency are significantly improved, even on a fairly recent SuperNait. However, in the process, it retains all the typically Naim-like traits that Naim’s loyal following have loved for years, such as that almost stripped-back temporal precision and sense of musical correctness.

 
For what they charge, I bet the owners all live in castles.
 
The best from their Website:
https://www.naimaudio.com/naim-for-bentley
 
Sorry my extreme apologies  - I'm not in the 'Bentley' class.

 

[rb2013]

  Could you make a block diagram of your configuration, with a short description of each piece of gear in use?
That would help me see what you've come up with and give me a sense of what's needed for implementation.
As it stands now I don't understand what is where, nor the signal path etc.
 
Thanks! 

 
JJ

Sure I'll get the chain out from behind the rack and photograph it today.  That should make it a bit clearer.

 

[rb2013]

  Hi Bob,
 
Thanks for this. Very interesting, as always.
 
M

Cheers Mate!
 

Have you used a 2 pc solution? I would think in that case the use of SSD versus HD versus USB for music storage would be of less consequence.

No that I have not tried.  But in essence that is what I have now.  With the Startech SPARTAN 6 FPGA in the REX doing the data storage retrieval and conversion.
 
At this point when processing power increases on the small NUC bricks going that direction.  The PC is only doing one thing right now on a SSD drive - that is processing the audio player.  A noted industry person mentioned that part of the secret to the SQ improvement maybe the 'slower' processing of the CPU incoming data stream, then a SATA III would feed.  Less work on the part of the CPU to keep up, less modulation of the CPU processing power demands, less noise.
 
It seems to me a Haswell iCore7 3.6Ghz and 12GB of DDR3 the processor load is very small.
 
But I did notice a significant improvement in SQ after running Fidelizer (free) and another improvement running Fidelizer Pro (non-Networked Audio Player, Purist).  This would have shut down needless processes - and lowering the CPU load.  So maybe that is the key.
 
I read somewhere that a noted audio engineer said you should have as 'much' PC processing power as possible - that loads on the CPU cause heat, and RFI/EMI noise, PS ground plane noise.  Even when operating at low reported levels - with today's powerful processors.
 
This i partly why I have avoided a NUC like this

Intel N3160 Quad-Cores 1.6Ghz, even with a LPS.​

 
http://www.musicalparadise.ca/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=71&product_id=83

 

[goodvibes]

 
I'm not angry - just shinning a light on the 'Naim' cult.  I have heard much Naim gear and was never impressed - esp for the insane dollars they charge. 
 
How they sold those BS LM317 (180uv of noise) based Naim HiCap - that they charged like $2000 for. 
 
Then charged another $700 to 'upgrade' from the lowly LM317 LDO to a discrete design - with the DR. 

http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/naim-audio-discrete-regulator-upgrade/
 
 
So $2700 for a power supply that is probably not a good as the $150 Copper clad R-Core discrete regulation 11uv MEIYAN.
 
I do give them some credit for showing what better linear power supplies can do to SQ. 
 
For what they charge, I bet the owners all live in castles.
 
The best from their Website:
https://www.naimaudio.com/naim-for-bentley
 
Sorry my extreme apologies  - I'm not in the 'Bentley' class.

Probably allowed you to hear your sources. No wonder you keep trying.

 

[rb2013]

  No wonder you keep trying.

Not trying anymore

- when a digital chain can blow a $30,000 Analog rig out of the water - that's my ticket!
 
It doesn't have cute green lights (well the iPur2 has a small one) - but it sure sound amazing.  I will gladly put it up against Naim, Aurender, DCS, etc...

 

[goodvibes]

This time or last time?

 

[rb2013]

Ok back to a positive note...here is what I'm hearing:  Last night a 4 hour listening session - some details.
 
First up was the epic Cat Stevens 'Tea for the Tillerman'  I have been listening to this amazing performance and production for like 40 yrs.  First on cassette then 1st pressing vinyl, later 200gm vinyl (that I nearly wore out playing on my vinyl rig), CD, SACD, Hi Rez download, etc...  Heard this album thousands of times - and never like last night.
 
I came away floored at the newly revealed detail and clarity.  But what most impressed me was the delicacy, subtle performance nuances, emotional conveyance newly presented.
 
From the opening soft guitar strumming on 'Where Do The Children Play' it was a joy, some moments really stood out.  The tonal richness and realism of the opening piano on 'Sad Lisa', the nuanced interplay with Cat's emotional vocals - excellent!  On my 5ft tall Maggies he and his piano literally in the room presence.  Then comes the violin!  What a performance.  This string section never sounded so nuanced and intimate.  I gained a new appreciation for this fine production.  The close miking on his brief guitar interludes snapping with each string pluck, this had to be improvised.
 
The dynamics were superb, as well as the ink jet black background.  This source is so dynamic - it does take some adjustment to, to get the volume set right.  The music seems to just explode out of blackness.  The ability to present this realistic dynamism, meant I had to throttle the vol down at times, so my wife would not come complaining!  Now the Magneplanar are not know for their dynamics or bass extension, but I will say last night they were not sounding like Maggies.  This improvement in dynamics is what I notice the most versus the best I could get from AOIP.
 
Air and transparency with a clarity and holographic imaging I have not heard to this degree (which the Maggies are known for).  So on it went all night.
 
On a different level the other stand out recording was Kings of Leon 'Because of The Times'.  The high level of air, space, transparency gave this recording a new presentation.  Caleb Followill vocal inflections now better conveyed again in nuance.  Then the explosive drum strikes of Nathan Followill!  The initial strike impulse wave chest felt, the reverberations recorded with loads of echo, trailing off back deep into the sound field.  All interlaced with Matthew Followill twangy guitar hanging in 3d.  This is some recording and last night was beyond anything I have heard with AOIP, Analog or CD.
 
The pounding drum strikes and guttural guitar cords on the opening of 'Charmer' showing off the new explosive energy and power now delivered.  Never hashed, congested, limited or clipped - seeming unending of dynamic reserves.  Goosebumps.  I have never heard the Maggies deliver that level and depth of bass.
 
So that was just a glimpse of what was heard with this new chain, but there are other things that are hard to convey - the emotional connection and the spooky real sound staging and pinpoint imaging, the depth and width of the sound field, the size and point energy delivery of these powerful instruments  - just extraordinary!
 
Cheers!

 

[hopkins]

  No that I have not tried.  But in essence that is what I have now.  With the Startech SPARTAN 6 FPGA in the REX doing the data storage retrieval and conversion.

 
Well generally you would have the reverse setup with the PC interfacing to the DAC with the least tasks (no data retrieval, and minimum data conversion). Granted, the Startech is basically just a hub.
 
Maybe that is the issue with your previous experience with USB: trying to run everything off a single computer. I think it would be interesting for you to evaluate your current chain against a good quality dual PC setup. There are a lot of great options out there for "player" boards, with the type of optimizations you are attempting: MicroRendu, SOTM SMS-200, and many people playing with single-board computers and various add-on boards (isolation, reclocking, etc...). Not to mention network renderers.
 
Anyway - glad you are enjoying your current setup.

 

[wushuliu]

This time or last time?

Please stop trolling. You obviously have not read the previous threads and you are missing the point.

 

[rb2013]

Well I want to say that yes the first time I truly felt digital audio whether disk based (CD, SACD, DVD-A) or computer based unquestioningly surpassed my best analog rig was with AOIP, made better with the Mutec MC-3+ USB as SPDIF regenerator and Antelope OCX clock.

This hybrid USB/Ethernet- USB reprocessing/storage is another revolutionary step ahead.  But that takes nothing away from AOIP - it is great!  And a seachange over almost all other USB digital connections.
 
As I have said in the past I am completely agnostic - I have no alience to any solution - just trust what my ears tell me.  Because I find this new and I acknowledge crazy USB/Ethernet chain better, does not diminish the excellent SQ of AOIP one bit.
 
As I posted many times on my AOIP thread - I always felt that the unfortunate use of SMPS in ProAudio gear was a limitation, just as it is in consumer audio gear.  The fact that these $1k+ Pro Audio boxes all come with switch mode power supplies is a drawn back.  Now a few are wising up and at least providing a DC power port - like the new Antelope Live Clock -OCX external wClock.  So the user has the option of buying a separate LPS.
 
Me and a much more talented DIY friend (well mainly him) modded the BURL B2B Bomber Dante DAC to rid it of the switcher - not an easy job.  And the results were definitely worth it.  Being a died in the wool tube DAC fan - I missed my tube DACs.  Although I have to say the discrete class A opamp design of the B2B was very good.  Just for the money a better tube DAC could be had or built.
 
So that lead to not totally give up on the USB/Ethernet solution.
 
Now someone asked if I had a chance to try the Startech/USB stick as storage only with the AOIP gear - I did not.  Having sold everything once the initial results became clear.  I was also expecting a cheaper - externally powered AOIP box to come along.  One did but was still too expensive ($1000) - the Arrakis Simple 8 Digital AES3 XLR:
http://www.arrakis-systems.com/arrakis---simple-ip.html
 
Not a standard DC plug (why not?  These ProAudio companies think differently and that is a problem), but at least some kind of cable could be made. 
 
Worth it?  Don't know

 

[hopkins]

Maybe try cloud storage as well and see if you hear a difference ?

 

[rb2013]

Ok here is the layout.

  Maybe try cloud storage as well and see if you hear a difference ?

My Music Servers never see the internet!  Not a single crash, blue screen in over 10 yrs of 24/7 running.  The internet is a disaster.

 

[joelha]

First, Rob, congratulations on your be digital discovery. Absolutely fascinating.

I'm curious, where would the Startech USB device be connected in a chain which included a Rednet D16? I'm probably missing something obvious.

Thanks for your great work.

Joel