UPDATE: A-gd Sparrow & k702s/Arrow 12HE & Hifiman602/Looking for advice on headphone/DAC purchase (with many specifics below...)
Aug 13, 2010 at 10:01 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 46

hardtimes

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Let me start by saying thanks in advance for any help/suggestions...
 
I'm a fairly serious music listening who recently has been doing most of my listening on headphones. My stereo system is a Krell SACD, Cary tube pre-amp, Rotel amp, and a pair of b&w 801s from the early '00s. If I was buying now, I'd no longer be able to afford that quality equipment -- which is also why I can't use it as much anymore: I'm married and have a nine-month old child.
 
My tastes are pretty varied, and in terms of serious listening it pretty much runs the gamut, with opera and hip-hop being the most notable exceptions. I listen to a lot of acoustic music (mainly bluegrass), a lot of jazz (heavy on Blue Note era hard-bop), and everything from Elvis to the VU to Radiohead, etc etc.
 
When I listen to music when I'm on the move -- subway/plane/walk in the park -- I use Koss PortaPros, which I think may be the best value out there. I'm looking for suggestions for when I'm sitting at home (or on my porch) and doing nothing but listening to music.
 
Recently, I've been listening to a lot of 24/96 rips of audiophile vinyl rips on a Mac, either using iTunes or Play. (Some examples of things that have sounded really nice: the Analog Productions 45rpm remaster of Sam Cooke's "Night Beat"; a Japanese LP pressing of Paul Simon's "Graceland," a Speakers Corner 180g LP rip of Lou Reed's "Transformer," and an absolutely mind-blowing Classic Records 200g analog remaster of Zappa's "Hot Rats." For any Zappa fans, it sounds like a whole new album. There's not any jazz listed here b/c a lot of what I have in high-quality digital is MFSL remasters, and those tend to have very severe channel separation, which can make headphone listening a less-than spellbinding experience.) I've also been listening to a fair amount of those flac files converted to 24/48 for my iPod.
 
For all of the above, I'm currently using a pair of Grado SR80s. I've been using those for about 200 hours. I like them a lot, but I definitely notice the drawbacks -- although some of this might also be due to the absence of a DAC/headphone amp. The biggest thing is that they tend to strain to capture subtleties at either end of the sonic spectrum, which leaves my ears feeling tired after an hour or so. It also means I need more volume to get all the detail, and I'd much prefer listening to something at a softer level.
 
Finally, I go back and forth on this but I think my overall preference is for over-ear as opposed to on-ear, although that's really a 55-45 deal: When I'm listening to music I like to get as lost as possible, and the leakiness in both directions of on-ears mean that I can hear things on the "outside" and people can hear me.
 
I'm looking to spend somewhere between $500 and $800 for a DAC/amp and headphone upgrade -- $500 being what I should probably limit myself to, $800 being what I need to limit myself to without putting my marriage (and my mortgage) in jeopardy. I use a laptop, and would bet even money I'd buy something like the Hifiman 801 in the next 12-18 mos, so it probably makes the most sense for me to get something that's more as opposed to less portable.
 
After spending the better part of two weeks reading through reviews and forums, I'm leaning towards getting the CEntrance DACport because of its obvious portability and the bang for the buck. The issue then is whether my SR80s will do that justice. If not, will buying a pair of $200 headphones make an appreciable enough difference over my $100 Grados to be worth it?
 
To put an end to my rambling: Considering the above, does the DACport sound like a good choice? And if so, what headphone recommendations would people make?
 
Or...would something/some combination of what's below, which were the other things that I've spent the most time considering, make more sense?
 
DACs
(Outside of price issues on any one or the other of these, the main issue on all of them is the portability factor, esp inre: personal players.)
between $100-$250
Audinst HUD-MX1: Good/good value DAC/amp for under $200, which would leave me with enough money to invest some more money on phones
NuForce Icon uDac2: Ditto per the Audinst.
Edit: removed Schiit asgard b/c it's not a DAC.
 
between $400-$500
NuForce Icon HDP: Seems like it has the best value for the dollar at this price-range.
Emmeline Protector: I'm going to admit my ignorance here and admit that I'm not sure I totally understand why this is so great...but people seem to think it's pretty great.
Hifiman EF-5: In addition to it being a very good product for the money, it obviously works well with other Hifiman products, some of which I'm considering for down the line.
 
Headphones
Under $200
Senn HD 25-1s: If I get the DACport, this may offer a slight upgrade over the SR80s.
$300-$500
HifiMan HE-5s: If I get one of the less-than $200 DACs and decide to go all-in on phones, this seems to be the best value out there.
Senn HD-650s: another contender for best bang/buck.
 
Again -- any advice is much appreciated in advance. I know I just spit out a lot, but from what I've read thus far on the forums, it doesn't make sense to ask for advice unless you're specific about what you're looking for...
 
Aug 13, 2010 at 10:04 PM Post #2 of 46

 
Quote:
DACs
(Outside of price issues on any one or the other of these, the main issue on all of them is the portability factor, esp inre: personal players.)
between $100-$250
Audinst HUD-MX1: Good/good value DAC/amp for under $200, which would leave me with enough money to invest some more money on phones
NuForce Icon uDac2: Ditto per the Audinst.
Schiit asgard: The wildcard for me in this pricerange. It seems like it's gotten some very positive reviews and could be a nice intermediate price point that would still allow me to spend $200-$300 on new headphones.
between $400-$500
NuForce Icon HDP: Seems like it has the best value for the dollar at this price-range.
Emmeline Protector: I'm going to admit my ignorance here and admit that I'm not sure I totally understand why this is so great...but people seem to think it's pretty great.
Hifiman EF-5: In addition to it being a very good product for the money, it obviously works well with other Hifiman products, some of which I'm considering for down the line.
 
Headphones
Under $200
Senn HD 25-1s: If I get the DACport, this may offer a slight upgrade over the SR80s.
$300-$500
HifiMan HE-5s: If I get one of the less-than $200 DACs and decide to go all-in on phones, this seems to be the best value out there.
Senn HD-650s: another contender for best bang/buck.
 
Again -- any advice is much appreciated in advance. I know I just spit out a lot, but from what I've read thus far on the forums, it doesn't make sense to ask for advice unless you're specific about what you're looking for...


The Schiit Asgard is NOT a DAC, by the way. It's a headphone amplifier.
 
I've also been looking for a decent DAC for myself, and I've pretty much narrowed it down to either the V-DAC ($300) or the DacMagic ($430). I still can't make up my mind as to which one of the two, however.
 
Aug 13, 2010 at 10:13 PM Post #3 of 46
the ibasso d4 is a killer dac, for about $220.
it's also a portable amp that can be run off usb or 9v battery.
 
the dac in the d4 is a dual-chip wolfson wm8740.
if i'm being honest, it really performs above its price point as just a dac.
 
also, the opamps are rollable, meaning they can be upgraded by pulling and plugging.  no soldering on the board.
 
just a thought.
pair that with some nice low impedance cans, and you have a nice system that can go anywhere, or remain plugged in at your desktop.
 
Aug 13, 2010 at 10:22 PM Post #4 of 46
Ahhh....right. Thanks (on the Schiit.) I thought about just going the amp/no DAC route, but it seemed like that didn't make sense for what I'm looking for..
 
I hadn't even looked at the v-DAC. or the DacMagic (obviously). They both look great as well. the v-DAC looks like it's the slightly smaller (and significantly less expensive of the two), but they'd both need external power sources so size in that case isn't a huge issue. I'm guessing they don't need separate headphone amps?
 
Aug 13, 2010 at 10:24 PM Post #6 of 46
They both do need dedicated amps. They're both only DACs.
 
Aug 13, 2010 at 10:32 PM Post #7 of 46
Quote:
the ibasso d4 is a killer dac, for about $220.
it's also a portable amp that can be run off usb or 9v battery.
 
wow - i don't know how i missed that. and it'd leave me a lot more money for headphones.
 
i'm sure this is going to sound like a silly question, but: the DACs I initially listed below (HUD MX1, Icon uDac2, Icon HDP, Hifiman EF-5) are all also amps, or are some of those just DACs as well?
 
and for the ibasso -- or anything else that's just a DAC -- does it really only make sense to drop a couple of hundred bucks on that if I'm also going to get an amp to drive the headphones?
 
maybe a smarter way for me to start off would have just been to ask what combination of products would make the most sense for my total price -- in terms of working together, value, upgradability, etc?

 
Aug 13, 2010 at 10:55 PM Post #8 of 46
Well, there's also a Audio-gd sparrow, especially if your source is only your macbook.  But the Ibasso is great if you need a portable and desktop amp/dac.  Hrmm because you listen to a variety of music, it can be difficult to choose the all-in-one can.  Beyers might be another option as well, but the Hifiman is a really solid choice.
 
Aug 13, 2010 at 11:09 PM Post #9 of 46
i honestly think you can't go wrong with one of the less expensive dac/amp combos.
like the ibasso d4 i mentioned.
or the audio-gd sparrow.  or the audinst.
 
however, if you go that route, just make sure you don't buy power-hungry cans.  like DT880/600, or HD650, or HE-5LE
 
most dac/amp combos have a fairly nice headphone amp, but nothing that will drive those cans to their best.
 
so, if you go with the ibasso d4, for example, just get lower impedance cans.
like some nicer audio technicas.  or upgrade your grados to RS1s.
or ultrasones, or something i'm not thinking of right now... 
biggrin.gif

 
Aug 13, 2010 at 11:31 PM Post #10 of 46
Well now that you mention it, Wuss.  Ultrasone do particular well for a variety of music, and with the sparrow, total cost spending can range from 400-500.
 
On a side note, I thought the sparrow has enough power to drive the HD650, hrmm now was it the sparrow or a different audio-gd that can drive the HE-5LE or am I thinking for another amp. 
 
Not to mention, all of the above are pretty good DACs, so if later on you wanted a more powerful amp, the pre-amp option can be quite nice.
 
Aug 14, 2010 at 12:03 PM Post #11 of 46
wuss, after reading your review of the 990s, those sound pretty attractive. I am a bass fan -- although there's something about being able to hear clear mid-ranges that usually stay hidden that's supremely satsifying. It sounds like I couldn't go wrong with either the 880s or the 990s, though. is there a specific reason you mentioned the ultrasones and not those? from your review and skimming some other forum posts it sounds as though either one of those are going to be more comfortable than the ultrasones in this price range (which looks like either the 750s or the 780s).
 
right now, i'm probably leaning towards getting one of beyers along with the d4, which would still keep the whole package around $500.
 
mythless -- it sounds like you like the sparrow more than the basso. am i reading you right, or is it more 6 vs half dozen? the d4 seems more attractive to me b/c of its portability and the ability to upgrade. do you have/have you spent time with both the ultrasones and the beyers? and am i right in thinking the beyers might be more comfortable?
 
Aug 14, 2010 at 12:22 PM Post #12 of 46


Quote:
...880s or the 990s, though. is there a specific reason you mentioned the ultrasones and not those?



um... yes.
the beyers are harder to recommend because the "only ones to get" are the 600 ohm versions.
and those limit you to serious amplification.  i.e., plug-in-the-wall style beefy headphone amp.
the ibasso D4 won't be enough...
 
however, i guess you could go this route, or something similar to it:
udac (for dac only), little dot mkIII tube amp, dt990/600 ohm.
 
now that's a nice setup.  all for around $500 i believe...
it won't be portable, but it will kick @$$. 
wink.gif

 
Aug 14, 2010 at 1:18 PM Post #13 of 46
hmmm. that's one of those things that i'd typically end up doing -- dt990+udac+dotmkIII -- but it'd probably make more sense to get something that's at least slightly more portable.
 
so i'm leaning towards:
 
ultrasone 750s
ibasso
$20 FiiO E5 thrown in just for fun
for a total of around $550-$600 depending on shipping and how soon I want them.
 
wild card: I can get "B stock" (demo/display/return) but full warranty HD650s for $350, so about $50 more than the 750s. i know the 650s tend to be the standard HP of choice for the $500 range. is there a good reason to stick with the 750s over these senns?
it's hard for me to say with any honesty/accuracy whether I like "warmer" senn sound vs more precise sound. warmer sounds nicer -- how could it not? -- but one thing I really love about listening to 24/96 digital copies is the incredible level of detail...
 
 
Aug 14, 2010 at 2:25 PM Post #14 of 46
wuss -- in the beatles stereo channel separation thread you mentioned crossfeed -- and after a (very) quick search i couldn't find any obvious choices for a dac/amp that also had crossfeed. considering the amount of music i have that could use it, it seems like that might be something i should consider as well. what do you think?
 
Aug 14, 2010 at 2:34 PM Post #15 of 46
you can do software crossfeed in foobar2000 and a few other mp3 players.  that's what i do in my office setup.
i believe headroom and meier are the ones who make hardware crossfeed.
 
regarding the hd650s.  they are another example of a headphone that will make you chase amplification endlessly.  they are 300 ohms (i believe).  and, the sound when not properly amped can be veiled and too laid back.
 
but, the ultrasones will be lively and are pretty easy to drive.
i think the ultrasone path is a pretty good one...
 
warmer just means more presense of bass and mids.
it can be a more easy-to-listen-to sound sig. for sure.
but, it's a matter of taste...
 

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