Topping E70 Velvet DAC Review, Measurements and Comparisons
Feb 5, 2023 at 7:09 AM Post #46 of 114
Thanks and yeah, I think the UI complaints are minimum but I think most people will set it up once and never touch anything ever again. So it’s not end of the world.

I didn’t attempt to play with the DSD filters. I usually only attempt a quick listen on PCM filters. I normally can’t hear a difference except for a few NOS filter exceptions. I did however attempt to find the DSD filters in the setup menu and I didn’t see an option just like what you mentioned. Weird it’s missing. I couldn’t get anything to happen when I tried to use the remote on a DSD track either.

One would believe, because one’s belief that DSD sound quality versus PCM sq is purely subjective, leading to one’s library consisting of very few examples of DSD, that the absence of DSD filtering would be of absolutely no concern… but…

I remember reading from a Mojo kb article that PCM is native to R-2R DACs and DSD is native to delta-sigma DACs, and that conversions are necessary if the bitstream isn’t native. Am I to assume this is still the case, and is it during the conversion that filtering is applied (=> concern)? Or, is the filter applied to the analog result, and filtering is independent of conversion (=> no concern)?

I did audition the Cayin RU6 R-2R dongle DAC before ending up with the L&P dongle, but I do remember liking the RU6’s NOS filter best, whereas the NOS filter on the L&P seemed to be a different animal altogether. Would the absence of any DSD filters be the same as NOS?
 
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Feb 5, 2023 at 5:46 PM Post #47 of 114
Thanks and yeah, I think the UI complaints are minimum but I think most people will set it up once and never touch anything ever again. So it’s not end of the world.

I didn’t attempt to play with the DSD filters. I usually only attempt a quick listen on PCM filters. I normally can’t hear a difference except for a few NOS filter exceptions. I did however attempt to find the DSD filters in the setup menu and I didn’t see an option just like what you mentioned. Weird it’s missing. I couldn’t get anything to happen when I tried to use the remote on a DSD track either.
thank you

now I know it isn't just me, even though the manual says they should be there. I would assume this is easily fixable in a firmware update.
 
Feb 5, 2023 at 9:35 PM Post #48 of 114
One would believe, because one’s belief that DSD sound quality versus PCM sq is purely subjective, leading to one’s library consisting of very few examples of DSD, that the absence of DSD filtering would be of absolutely no concern… but…

I remember reading from a Mojo kb article that PCM is native to R-2R DACs and DSD is native to delta-sigma DACs, and that conversions are necessary if the bitstream isn’t native. Am I to assume this is still the case, and is it during the conversion that filtering is applied (=> concern)? Or, is the filter applied to the analog result, and filtering is independent of conversion (=> no concern)?

I did audition the Cayin RU6 R-2R dongle DAC before ending up with the L&P dongle, but I do remember liking the RU6’s NOS filter best, whereas the NOS filter on the L&P seemed to be a different animal altogether. Would the absence of any DSD filters be the same as NOS?
well, some of us, no names mentioned lol, have a couple terabytes of DSD material.. mostly native in some way.

There are several ways to convert DSD... here are the most common.

1. Native (or, as close to native as we can get)

The bitstream stays at 1 bit, untouched. No DSP, Bypassing all volume control, no pre-filtering, no second delta sigma modulating stage. The actual digital to analog conversion is done by discrete parts. These discrete parts are a shift register out of which multiple 1-bit streams come forth offset by 1 sample each, some kind of analog dynamic matching/scrambling, and bit switches, usually collected into multiple groups to create 'analog coefficients" Yeah, its a digital FIR filter made with all analog discrete parts. This is what Burr-Brown DAC's like the DSD1793 at iFi have. T+A makes a discrete version of their own. Holospring and Denafrips all use something similar, and Miska (his handle at AudiophileStyle) has a open source DAC anyone can build that is DSD only using this technique.

Why is it so good? The DSD bitstream is only touched once, and is ingeniously a combination of the necessary FIR filter and the digital to analog converter in one piece.
It might look something like this.... (note that this is extremely similar to the output stage of a multi bit Delta Sigma DAC as well. However, this is the way to bypass all the DSP involved in a multi bit Delta Sigma DAC and in the end, have basically a 1 bit DSD (Delta Sigma) stream converted directly to analog via a single end of stage FIR filter)




1 Bit DSD enters Shift Register( we will make it super short, like T+A which I believe only 4 bits/clock cycle of delay) means it looks like this.........

DSD hybrid Digital Analog filter diagram.png




2. CONVERSION OF DSD VIA DSP TO INTERMEDIATE MULTI-BIT STATE, RE-MODULATION BY MULTI-BIT DELTA SIGMA NOISESHAPER, CONVERSION TO ANALOG IN SIMILAR MANNER TO THE ABOVE.


THIS KIND of Conversion you will find in the ESS chipsets, although they give us very little REAL details on how they do it, and honestly, some of it just doesn't add up and needs a more open explanation. After all my reading we are lead to believe that a gain stage is applied directly to the one bit signal to create a volume control and a multi-bit intermediary. Well, it CAN'T be that simple. We are dealing with a 1 bit 2 level binary here. If you are going to simply multiple each 1 or 0 by a 32 bit gainstage number, well, that just won't work. You can't just convert 1 bit 2.8mhz DSD magically into 32 bit 2.8mhz 'super DSD' via a gain stage. MORE must be involved, such as using something like the above example 1.... a short moving average filter which yes, you CAN then multiply by a gain stage and change volume. (BTW that is EXACTLY how Sonoma 8bit DSD-WIDE is made from 1 bit DSD.) But rather than harp on ESS lack of transparency, we can talk about AKM, or Cirrus, or any other that is a bit more transparent about their process.

AKM offers TWO modes. It offers a direct mode exactly like I explained above in Example One. But the DAC manufacture has to choose the added complexity of implementing this mode along with the more convenient processed mode, which allows for gain matching and volume control. The Topping E70V does not use the direct mode. It uses its processing mode. So, then how does it work?

DSD PATH TOPPING E70V.png



Of course this is very simplified. It also 'reads between the lines' of the AKM Datasheets, and so often those are not exactly accurate and are used to sell chips moreso than actually provide detailed information about what actually is going on.

I hope many of you find this at least somewhat edifying.... now, I am back to some final measurements on the Topping DAC's.
 
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Feb 6, 2023 at 5:37 AM Post #49 of 114
I also have a Topping E70 Velvet, in native DSD the 2 filters do not work as the manual says, I wrote to the topping, the topping checked and told me that there was an error in the manual, the 2 filters are therefore not there yes , the DSD filter is fixed , but leaving all this alone , I have time to return until February 22nd , and I would like to buy an SMSL D300 , do you think I 'm good or bad ? or should I keep the E70 Velvet Topping? Is the D300 a good DAC? does it have any flaws? how does it sound? Have any of you tried it with any type of audio file? let me know please.
Excuse my English, I use the translator, I'm Italian
 
Feb 6, 2023 at 6:22 AM Post #50 of 114
I also have a Topping E70 Velvet, in native DSD the 2 filters do not work as the manual says, I wrote to the topping, the topping checked and told me that there was an error in the manual, the 2 filters are therefore not there yes , the DSD filter is fixed , but leaving all this alone , I have time to return until February 22nd , and I would like to buy an SMSL D300 , do you think I 'm good or bad ? or should I keep the E70 Velvet Topping? Is the D300 a good DAC? does it have any flaws? how does it sound? Have any of you tried it with any type of audio file? let me know please.
Excuse my English, I use the translator, I'm Italian

Amir’s measurements not quite matching either the E70 or E70V, but certainly allowing for a respectable listening experience. Amir does put it on his recommend list.

Hopefully, you’ll be able to translate…

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/smsl-d300-review-balanced-dac.28919/

Edit… grammar
 
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Feb 6, 2023 at 2:17 PM Post #51 of 114
I also have a Topping E70 Velvet, in native DSD the 2 filters do not work as the manual says, I wrote to the topping, the topping checked and told me that there was an error in the manual, the 2 filters are therefore not there yes , the DSD filter is fixed , but leaving all this alone , I have time to return until February 22nd , and I would like to buy an SMSL D300 , do you think I 'm good or bad ? or should I keep the E70 Velvet Topping? Is the D300 a good DAC? does it have any flaws? how does it sound? Have any of you tried it with any type of audio file? let me know please.
Excuse my English, I use the translator, I'm Italian
what I have seen of it, tells of DAC that measures extremely well. I think many will agree with me that they will never hear a difference between a DAC with 113db SINAD and one with 120db SINAD.

I will see if I can get a D300 in here very quickly and give you a comparison to the E70V. No guarantees it is done in time, but it is my pleasure to serve.
 
Feb 6, 2023 at 2:54 PM Post #52 of 114
what I have seen of it, tells of DAC that measures extremely well. I think many will agree with me that they will never hear a difference between a DAC with 113db SINAD and one with 120db SINAD.

I will see if I can get a D300 in here very quickly and give you a comparison to the E70V. No guarantees it is done in time, but it is my pleasure to serve.
Ok thanks , but I have time to return the E70 Velvet until February 22nd , however on another forum I read that the D300 has click and pop problems when changing frequency with audio files and even more so with DSDs .
 
Feb 6, 2023 at 5:03 PM Post #53 of 114
Ok thanks , but I have time to return the E70 Velvet until February 22nd , however on another forum I read that the D300 has click and pop problems when changing frequency with audio files and even more so with DSDs .
that is not an uncommon issue that is related to the fundamental difference of dsd and pcm and how they indicate 0 volume or mute. Most devices have calmed it, often to virtually nothing. If the click or pop isn't very loud, it may not be an issue, other than people might not like it and want that extra degree of refinement and I understand completely. But as long as it isn't loud enough to cause any damage, I personally have no issue with it at the price point. But again, I totally understand not wanting it at all.

i get mad at every rattle my Mazda MX-5 makes, even though I know it is a super stiff suspension and such is to be expected. But, it still annoys the hell out of me, lol
 
Feb 6, 2023 at 5:09 PM Post #54 of 114
Should we be at all concerned about the Velvet’s stand-out jitter for 16bit audio? (I mean “stand-out” in the sense that it’s almost 3x 24bit jitter—I have no idea what the jitter amplitude means, practically speaking. I usually lookfor bad jitter performance to the SPDIF inputs, as optical is important to me.)

I cannot wait to hear what “rambunctious” sounds like!

Cheers!

SPDIF (specifically optical/toslink in the case)

16 bit/44 khz = <32 picoseconds RMS jitter

24 bit/44khz = <3 picoseconds RMS jitter


So we are looking at about the same SPDIF performance vs USB. 32ps is IMO far below any standard of audibilty.

I think you are more than good to go with the Topping E70V from a jitter standpoint.


Futhermore, I got -131db THD, and 121db SINAD via the Optical input on E70V.

SNR was -125.8, a bit less than via USB, but still within expected experimental variance. Its right at 21 bits of resolution, which is state of the art and more.
 
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Feb 6, 2023 at 6:11 PM Post #55 of 114
SPDIF (specifically optical/toslink in the case)

16 bit/44 khz = <32 picoseconds RMS jitter

24 bit/44khz = <3 picoseconds RMS jitter


So we are looking at about the same SPDIF performance vs USB. 32ps is IMO far below any standard of audibilty.

I think you are more than good to go with the Topping E70V from a jitter standpoint.


Futhermore, I got -131db THD, and 121db SINAD via the Optical input on E70V.

SNR was -125.8, a bit less than via USB, but still within expected experimental variance. Its right at 21 bits of resolution, which is state of the art and more.

I’ll be looking forward to your subjective opinions of both DACs, but I know in which direction I’m going…
 
Feb 7, 2023 at 2:01 PM Post #56 of 114
Thanks and yeah, I think the UI complaints are minimum but I think most people will set it up once and never touch anything ever again. So it’s not end of the world.

I didn’t attempt to play with the DSD filters. I usually only attempt a quick listen on PCM filters. I normally can’t hear a difference except for a few NOS filter exceptions. I did however attempt to find the DSD filters in the setup menu and I didn’t see an option just like what you mentioned. Weird it’s missing. I couldn’t get anything to happen when I tried to use the remote on a DSD track either.

CONGRATS! You made top of the front page haha.

Maybe I can retire from this review and go ahead and move to the next lol... kidding, kidding :)

Great job!!!!
 
Feb 7, 2023 at 2:07 PM Post #57 of 114
After some tweaking, I finally got what I think are more accurate results for the optical input of the Topping E70Velvet.

I confirmed the outstanding THD and SINAD measurements, and measured jitter much closer to the USB output than my original quick test.

As most of you know, J-Test was never designed for USB anyway.. It was designed to test jitter over interfaces that carried no separate clock line, such as SPDIF, so it is a more appropriate test when using Toslink/Optical or Coax rather than USB or I2S, which carry their own clock lines.

I didn't hurry this test, and in turn I received, I believe, more accurate results.

26.6 picoseconds at 16/44, and less than 3 picoseconds at 24/44.

Topping E70V Jitter Spectrum TOSLINK 16bit 44khz FINAL.png
 
Feb 7, 2023 at 3:20 PM Post #59 of 114
Congrats bud!
 
Feb 7, 2023 at 5:32 PM Post #60 of 114
I’ve been the second front page for an already front page item before lol you never know :p
my only front page was for my review of the original 'Octadopter' iDSD Micro when iFi released the first edition with some 'limited edition' swag.

That thread is kind of infamous in my opinion hahhaha. It is still going today since 2014. I am half scared to read it. Both for my ignorance in 2014, and for the inevitable critiques... :dt880smile:
 
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