[theveterans]

Hmm, looks well designed, but see my other response. Many people do not have a proper bit-perfect configuration, sound is resampled in the Windowze mixer, then ground loops from PC further degrade sound. It is why such network all in one approach make sense for ordinary people, but it is still ESS DAC.

It’s still ESS but at least Matrix knows how to optimize the use of their digital implementation and analog amplification without affecting measurements hence the ability for it to not lose resolution and dynamics during complex passages. It doesn’t sound sterile nor warmpoo as well. It’s definitely unmistakably DS but excellent sounding DS that is worthy to be in a rack IMHO

 

[barato]

Lol, that has to be most epic stuff i ever read, Congrats!
Thing you do here is spreading fairytales and saying im getting personal? Did i called you names?
Thing is youre in camp that thinks: everything has to be made hard old way to sound good and chips, opamps, switched power supplies should be disregarded.
New stuff have less distortion, less noise, but when headphones fr suck one need coloration from amp and dac.
I take eq utopia or eq hd800S with cheap china stuff over expensive dac and amp any day.

Wrong. If something sounds good it sounds good, doesnt need to be made any way. (btw Soekris DACs use SMPS and op amps and they are excellent)
Maybe it was just a huge coincidence that all these DACs that share the same or similar designs sound poor.... sorry to spread the fairytales, that is reserved for you and your EQ.

Sounding bad is relative in the end, to the untrained person all these DACs are probably indistinguishable (you maybe?) and some cheap ones are still ok for the price
, but if you actually have better DACs to compare you might start to get it. If not, you aren't really in position to argue.

You keep talking about DAC colouration being a substitute for EQ, which is proof you are talking complete nonsense.
Name these DACs you have used that colour the sound?
Assuming you have a single example and arent another blind ASR puppet it won't be any example I gave.
If you just like to pretend you know what you're talking about, then you can show me your A/B test showing you can hear distortion or 'colouration' at the same level as those examples, even anywhere close to it, if it can be a substitute for EQ it should be dead easy.
https://www.klippel.de/listeningtest/

 

[Arniesb]

Wrong. If something sounds good it sounds good, doesnt need to be made any way.
Maybe it was just a huge coincidence that all these DACs that share the same or similar designs sound poor.... sorry to spread the fairytales, that is reserved for you and your EQ.

Sounding bad is relative in the end, to the untrained person all these DACs are probably indistinguishable (you maybe?) and some cheap ones are still ok for the price
, but if you actually have better DACs to compare you might start to get it. If not, you aren't really in position to argue.

You keep talking about DAC colouration being a substitute for EQ, which is proof you are talking complete nonsense.
Name these DACs you have used that colour the sound?
Assuming you have a single example and arent another blind ASR puppet it won't be any example I gave.
If you just like to pretend you know what you're talking about, then you can show me your A/B test showing you can hear distortion or 'colouration' at the same level as those examples, even anywhere close to it, if it can be a substitute for EQ it should be dead easy.
https://www.klippel.de/listeningtest/

Tell me how your preffered dac or amp make headphones with bad frequency response sound better over cheap dac and amp?
What magic besides distortion, low crosstalk and other bad stuff your preffered dacs have?
More transparent gear more obvious your headphones and Speakers faults gonna be highlighted! I guess you like no transparency, since non transparent gear wont highlight issues that you have.
What magic components gear must have to achieve nirvana? Maybe lot of parts that increases distortion?

 

[barato]

I don't claim to understand how they sound better, all I know is that measured distortion can not explain it. Maybe one day improved measuring techniques will be able explain it, it will be a great day because it will mean mainstream adoption, with better sounding electronics than ever before for much cheaper.

The idea that more transparent gear would only make things sound worse is another stupid myth, a myth that probably exists because so many 'transparent' DACs sound like crap.
Truly good, transparent gear sounds smoother and more natural and while revealing more detail.
Have you tried any of those DACs? No. So of course you can not grasp this.

 

[Arniesb]

I don't claim to understand how they sound better, all I know is that measured distortion can not explain it. Maybe one day improved measuring techniques will be able explain it, it will be a great day because it will mean mainstream adoption, with better sounding electronics than ever before for much cheaper.

The idea that more transparent gear would only make things sound worse is another stupid myth, a myth that probably exists because so many 'transparent' DACs sound like crap.
Truly good, transparent gear sounds smoother and more natural and while revealing more detail.
Have you tried any of those DACs? No. So of course you can not grasp this.

Yup i tried dave, tried matrix x sabre pro mqa and while they sounded better than Cheap Chinese dacs, technical prowess was barely noticed.
More warmth, yes!
I also specifically bought Violectric v280 cause everybody said it should pair very well with HD800S other neutral headphones.

I sold that amp cause i had some bad situation, loved it with HD800S. These days though i wont rebuy it cause i tried eq and it works amazingly! No need specific amp! Rather get for Benchmark hpa4, Niimbus or Topping a90 discreete next...
For example: Later Violectric and Niimbus amps sound more neutral, also technicalities rose; Coincidence? I think not.

 

[barato]

Well you notice a small difference with those DACs and it's a positive one so doesn't that answer your question above? it is always small but crucial differences with DACs.

I think R2R and focus on high quality clocks have some of the most appreciable differences

 

[theveterans]

Well you notice a small difference with those DACs and it's a positive one so doesn't that answer your question above? it is always small but crucial differences with DACs.

It's like upgrading headphones, but on a far smaller scale and when listened over the periods of time, it becomes crucial especially in terms of fatigue due to our brain subconsciously correcting to the actual unamplified real life sound.

 

[sajunky]

It’s still ESS but at least Matrix knows how to optimize the use of their digital implementation and analog amplification without affecting measurements hence the ability for it to not lose resolution and dynamics during complex passages. It doesn’t sound sterile nor warmpoo as well. It’s definitely unmistakably DS but excellent sounding DS that is worthy to be in a rack IMHO

It seems we are not in disagreement at all, while I was trying to say that DAC itself can sound poor when working in a wrong environment and a PC is a terrible source. Network streaming feature is the biggest selling point of Matrix, also avoiding a noisy connection from PC, but it comes at the price.

Audio GD (known the best for their R2R implementations) also has ESS based DACs NFB-11 series. NFB means non-feedback which means that I/V conversion and the amplifier is not a supermarket grade, but a class A discrete design. This is old series, still selling, a new one is named D-xx with the latest model AS-1. All these models sound as good as ESS based DAC can.

 

[theveterans]

It seems we are not in disagreement at all, while I was trying to say that DAC itself can sound poor when working in a wrong environment and a PC is a terrible source. Network streaming feature is the biggest selling point of Matrix, also avoiding a noisy connection from PC, but it comes at the price.

Audio GD (known the best for their R2R implementations) also has ESS based DACs NFB-11 series. NFB means non-feedback which means that I/V conversion and the amplifier is not a supermarket grade, but a class A discrete design. This is old series, still selling, a new one is named D-xx with the latest model AS-1. All these models sound sound as good as ESS based DAC can.

It's a matter of synergy and implementation in any case. If the source delivery is subpar, that would be the bottleneck. Not sure why jitter measurements don't capture this bad source delivery as it should or that maybe our ears are just extremely sensitive to very small changes in jitter that is not captured by AP555B screenshot (more like you have to record a video in realtime to see this I guess). GoldenOne comes close to it, but he does add an intona galvanic isolator in his measurements for more reliable jitter measurements

 

[sajunky]

It's a matter of synergy and implementation in any case. If the source delivery is subpar, that would be the bottleneck. Not sure why jitter measurements don't capture this bad source delivery as it should or that maybe our ears are just extremely sensitive to very small changes in jitter that is not captured by AP555B screenshot (more like you have to record a video in realtime to see this I guess). GoldenOne comes close to it, but he does add an intona galvanic isolator in his measurements for more reliable jitter measurements

Yes, @GoldenOne has a good approach, as otherwise results of the measurements would be different every time, even on the same system. The only one aspect is measured, the internal jitter generation when feeded with a low noise source. It doesn't give an answer how the same gear would increase jitter in a noisy environment, there are no standards to follow, and no one even tried to create a controlled environment for more comprehensive tests.

 

[GoldenSound]

It's a matter of synergy and implementation in any case. If the source delivery is subpar, that would be the bottleneck. Not sure why jitter measurements don't capture this bad source delivery as it should or that maybe our ears are just extremely sensitive to very small changes in jitter that is not captured by AP555B screenshot (more like you have to record a video in realtime to see this I guess). GoldenOne comes close to it, but he does add an intona galvanic isolator in his measurements for more reliable jitter measurements

Whilst it's not necessarily the most representative of how many people would be using their DAC, I add the isolator because it ensures that any performance measured is a result of the device itself and not influenced by the PC. The problem is that otherwise the measurement could be inconsistent based on what my PC was doing at the time etc.

I do usually check to make sure that there's no obvious changes in performance when connected to a PC though, and if there's anything drastic I'll mention that.
I've also sometimes mentioned smaller changes like with the Gustard X26 Pro for example, I should probably just start including this in all measurement sets tbh even though it may be a bit inconsistent. Still useful to know if there's a change at all.

But yeah, a bad USB source will show on the measurements usually as some added noise, which in turn can sometimes cause a rise in jitter.
(Though USB itself does not DIRECTLY impact jitter in the same way an SPDIF/AES/I2S connection/source does. It does not provide a clock signal used by the DAC for conversion)

But, to be honest, the intona is a great bit of kit. And even if someone is looking to get a really low noise source for less, a raspberry pi with Ropieee or Volumio installed does a wonderful job. Under $100 for everything you need, and you're good to go

 

[Leonarfd]

Not the D90, but I just got he Topping E70. Also getting the A90D in some days, budget stopped me from getting the D90.

The E70 uses ES9028Pro instead of the ES9038PRO in the E90SE, from the ESS-chip papers I couldn't really see why it should be worse.

So far it does what is needed on my desk, using it in DAC mode into Tube Amp trough RCA. Also feeding Lokius with studio monitors and A 20 AMP followed. Have not tried ESS DAC since 2013. Got scared back then by the glare and none musical traits. This is nothing like that, I might actually prefer it to the AK chip in my Questyle.

Depending who you ask there is either nothing to hear in DACs or people hear differences. At least to my ears the change from CMA400i as DAC to E70 is cleaner and more musical. This is paired with amps that are on the darker side, will be fun to see how the A90D is paired.

​

 

[gr4474]

I just bought a D90le. What is a good amp to pair with it?

 

[N0sferatu]

I just bought a D90le. What is a good amp to pair with it?

A90 Discrete I have paired with the D90SE. I also through a Schitt Lokius in the middle. It's epic bang for buck.

 

[povidlo]

Whilst it's not necessarily the most representative of how many people would be using their DAC, I add the isolator because it ensures that any performance measured is a result of the device itself and not influenced by the PC. The problem is that otherwise the measurement could be inconsistent based on what my PC was doing at the time etc.

I do usually check to make sure that there's no obvious changes in performance when connected to a PC though, and if there's anything drastic I'll mention that.
I've also sometimes mentioned smaller changes like with the Gustard X26 Pro for example, I should probably just start including this in all measurement sets tbh even though it may be a bit inconsistent. Still useful to know if there's a change at all.

But yeah, a bad USB source will show on the measurements usually as some added noise, which in turn can sometimes cause a rise in jitter.
(Though USB itself does not DIRECTLY impact jitter in the same way an SPDIF/AES/I2S connection/source does. It does not provide a clock signal used by the DAC for conversion)

But, to be honest, the intona is a great bit of kit. And even if someone is looking to get a really low noise source for less, a raspberry pi with Ropieee or Volumio installed does a wonderful job. Under $100 for everything you need, and you're good to go

What isolator do you use between PC and DAC?