[RnB180]

teflon insulation for cabling serves more then just potential improvement in sonics,

but the main deal with teflon is that its a super dielectric, has no chemicals properties that can migrate out of the insulation, and has a high heat resistance ratio that keeps the insulation in perfect for durning termination and is far more resiliant.

PVC has none of these benefits.

 

[RnB180]

dp

 

[RnB180]

dp

 

[skyskraper]

but in the same way that you can think someone is close minded for not believing in it, it's perfectly feasible for people that do not believe that cables make a significant difference to think that the people who perceive a significant change in sound from cables to be silly or what have you.

audible testing is flawed in itself, you unplug a cable and plug a different one in, or you flick a switch, then you are expecting to hear a difference.

 

[skyskraper]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RnB180 teflon insulation for cabling serves more then just potential improvement in sonics, but the main deal with teflon is that its a super dielectric, has no chemicals properties that can migrate out of the insulation, and has a high heat resistance ratio that keeps the insulation in perfect for during termination and is far more resiliant. PVC has none of these benefits.

oh come on, if it really is that much of a benefit, then why is there a decided lack of bulk cable on the market using teflon insulation?

 

[RnB180]

Quote:

Originally Posted by skyskraper but in the same way that you can think someone is close minded for not believing in it, it's perfectly feasible for people that do not believe that cables make a significant difference to think that the people who perceive a significant change in sound from cables to be silly or what have you. audible testing is flawed in itself, you unplug a cable and plug a different one in, or you flick a switch, then you are expecting to hear a difference.

sure, but I did it blindfolded, and when I heard a disntinct sound I called out the cable by name. so the differences were audioble enough to pick the exact cable that was plugged in while blindfolded.

people can tell me otherwise, thats good, wont change my opinion.

Theres also just the concept of "faith", everything in the world can't be explained by facts and numbers, nor what a person hears. If they hear a difference, what gives skeptics the right to tell others what they are SUPPOSED hear? Its a difference that tangible enough to the listener and no matter what its a difference worth hearing to the listener.

So I dont see nothing wrong with quality cables or claims of sonic differences between cables.

What I do have opinions against are items like rainbow foil, cd demagnetizer, and the intelligent chip

 

[RnB180]

Quote:

Originally Posted by skyskraper oh come on, if it really is that much of a benefit, then why is there a decided lack of bulk cable on the market using teflon insulation?

well isnt it used for NASA aplications, Military electronics and aerospace wire?

Hold a soldering iron to a teflon wire and one to a pvc and see what happens, leave a pvc wire in the sun and the teflon wire and see what happens.

hold an iron to a large barrel RCA connector with PVC insulation and another with teflon with a 40 watt iron and see what happens.

the differences in resiliance and overall quality is proof enough tp pick teflon.

If you were making a diy wire, and had to pick PVC or Teflon, anyone with a brain would pick teflon insulation if quality is what the diyer is looking for. Prove me wrong

and how teflon is NOT a superior dielectric and insulation over PVC, Skyskrapper?

why is there a decided lack of bulk teflon cable on the market?

I assume cost, since its cheaper for insulate copper wire with pvc, then insulat a wire with teflon which requires a much more higher temperature.

though nasa and military folk use it. but that I assume is where quality control is required much more highly then say Canare or megomi which have to create a bulk wire to meet a specific price point.

now I have an question for you, since teflon does not seem to have significant benefits, as you claim, find me at least 2 sources that manufacture pure silver wire insulated in pvc

I maybe since pure silver wire is so costly, an insulation and dielectric with superior properties must be used?


why do Hospitals use teflon?

 

[[AK]Zip]

Quote:

Originally Posted by skyskraper but in the same way that you can think someone is close minded for not believing in it, it's perfectly feasible for people that do not believe that cables make a significant difference to think that the people who perceive a significant change in sound from cables to be silly or what have you. audible testing is flawed in itself, you unplug a cable and plug a different one in, or you flick a switch, then you are expecting to hear a difference.

I tested different cables (all look the same) and all are made of different materials. I even recovered the stock 650 cable so it looks the same and had my fiancee try all of them. I had her write what she thought about each. She had a different opinion and feelings for each cable. Now to test make sure she isn't just finding things in her head I made 2 cables the same. The writeup on 2 were the same and she asked me if the 2 cables were the same when she finished.

In my opinion if people thing that different cables make no difference then they never herd upgrade cable or didn't just sit down and listen to it.

-Alex-

 

[Emon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RnB180 well isnt it used for NASA aplications, Military electronics and aerospace wire? Hold a soldering iron to a teflon wire and one to a pvc and see what happens, leave a pvc wire in the sun and the teflon wire and see what happens.

Of course teflon is used by NASA and the military, those specifications require materials far superior to everyday junk. They need the high melting temperature, chemical inertness, durability and other things that make teflon so awesome. But that doesn't mean you need it for audio. Audio is a very low grade compared to aerospace.

If 40 watts is melting your PVC, then it's too high a wattage. Either that, or you don't have much experience soldering. And I wouldn't classify a dozen DIY cables and amps as a lot of experience. If you leave PVC wire in the sun, do you know what will happen? Probably nothing. Except have its color bleached over time.

If you don't have the experience of patience to work with PVC on a regular basis, it's not like teflon is the only solution. Irradiated PVC has a higher melting point than regular PVC and is probably considerably more flexible than teflon. I'm not sure where to find irradiated PVC insulated wire, but I imagine it's not that hard, and is probably cheaper than silver plated, teflon insulated wire.

The only reason I'm using teflon right now is because I bought it back when I thought it would sound different. That and it increases resale value of anything I build, since there are so many people around here that have their hearts set on the stuff.

Edit: Just to clarify, I didn't mean to say that *I* have the experience or patience to work with PVC, because I don't. The insulation usually melts for me unless I'm really careful. In the future though, I'll probably buy irradiated PVC instead of wasting money on teflon.

 

[JWFokker]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emon Silver vs copper may make a difference since silver IS a better conductor than copper and that's clearly measurable.

I disagree. If the wire is of sufficient gauge, the minor difference in conductivity should make no audible difference. It's only when you fully saturate the wire's capacity that certain frequency ranges may block out others. But if you reach that point, I imagine your wire is going to be pretty warm. It should never get warm.

 

[Little J040]

I'm embarking on a DIY journey this week for the first time making interconnects. No fanshy smanshy rhodium connectors or OFC\ silver coated wire, just copper old fashioned wire and some 5$ a piece connectors. The mini to mini im using is neutrik, I;ll let everyone know how little or great of a difference they make in my stuff.

 

[JWFokker]

If it's not shielded, do Litz braid it. It does legitimately reduce EMI noise.

 

[RnB180]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emon If 40 watts is melting your PVC, then it's too high a wattage. Either that, or you don't have much experience soldering. And I wouldn't classify a dozen DIY cables and amps as a lot of experience. If you leave PVC wire in the sun, do you know what will happen? Probably nothing. Except have its color bleached over time.

Right... I dont have experience with soldering. I have no clue what Im talking about, you win. When does experience count then? possible I assume a thousand joints or so and few hundred connectors? xlr, pvc, teflon, rhodium, gold, silver, rca, mini, senn connectors, studio, audiophile, whatever you throw around and various mods don't count for experience.

Quote:

Edit: Just to clarify, I didn't mean to say that *I* have the experience or patience to work with PVC, because I don't. The insulation usually melts for me unless I'm really careful.

Then you have just negated your opinion due to the fact, you have no experience. I can work with pvc and teflon. I have patience for both. I prefer teflon, because its obviously a superior insulator and dielectric with measurable FACTUAL data of being the superior. So where do you get off telling me Im wrong?

The original poster asked for quality DIY did he not?

So wouldnt a teflon insulated silver, silver plater or copper wire be HIGHER QUALITY over standard pvc insulation? Im sorry if you support shooting for low ball parts, but I dont think youre helping here with the actual idea of creating a QUALITY DIY.

 

[Emon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWFokker I disagree. If the wire is of sufficient gauge, the minor difference in conductivity should make no audible difference. It's only when you fully saturate the wire's capacity that certain frequency ranges may block out others. But if you reach that point, I imagine your wire is going to be pretty warm. It should never get warm.

True, I was just pointing out that there is a measurable difference in the materials - whether or not it matters for audio, I'm unsure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RnB180 Right... I dont have experience with soldering. I have no clue what Im talking about, you win. When does experience count then? possible I assume a thousand joints or so and few hundred connectors? xlr, pvc, teflon, rhodium, gold, silver, rca, mini, senn connectors, studio, audiophile, whatever you throw around and various mods don't count for experience.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean YOU when I said, you, I was only taking your point and responding in general.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RnB180 Then you have just negated your opinion due to the fact, you have no experience. I can work with pvc and teflon. I have patience for both. I prefer teflon, because its obviously a superior insulator and dielectric with measurable FACTUAL data of being the superior. So where do you get off telling me Im wrong?

No, I do have plenty of experience soldering, I just didn't want it to appear that I thought I was more experience than everyone around here.

I'm not arguing that teflon is a superior dielectric - there is no doubt in my mind at all. I prefer it to PVC, however I just disagree with you on the fact that you're making PVC sound WAY worse than it really is. To me, what you said was more like "try soldering a PVC wire and the insulation will melt. Put it in the sun and it will melt." which is just not true. To me it sounded like you hate PVC because it melts on you all the time, which would imply that you don't have the necessary skills or are just impatient and rush through your work. I don't know if either is true, but that's sure how you made it seem.

I'm not saying you shouldn't buy teflon or should just "learn" to get good at working with PVC, I'm only trying to show that it's not as bad as you make it out to be. Not to mention irradiated PVC is pretty good stuff. There's also silicone insulation, which would melt at 1200 F, but is probably more expensive than teflon in small quantities, and may be harder to find.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RnB180 So wouldnt a teflon insulated silver, silver plater or copper wire be HIGHER QUALITY over standard pvc insulation? Im sorry if you support shooting for low ball parts, but I dont think youre helping here with the actual idea of creating a QUALITY DIY.

Yes, they are, I'm just pointing out that they aren't usually necessary for audio. Most people take pretty good care of their audio equipment, the charactaristics of teflon usually aren't needed. Unless you're exposing your cables to high heat or constant abrasion. And even if the PVC melts a little at each end of the cable, so what? It's no big deal. I'm not saying he shouldn't spring for higher quality wire, I'm just trying to point out that it's not always necessary. I don't suggest using junk, I'm just trying to point out that you don't need aerospace quality materials for audio.

 

[RnB180]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emon To me it sounded like you hate PVC because it melts on you all the time, which would imply that you don't have the necessary skills or are just impatient and rush through your work. I don't know if either is true, but that's sure how you made it seem.

nope not true for me at all, however, The original poster of the topic that is indeed NEW to DIY may incur the problems I listed prior. Mini cables especially require skill to terminate, since the solder contacts are so small and the connectors themselves have a very small temperature threshold, too hot and you can create intermittence as the ring can deviate from its position from the heat.