[TMRaven]

You think the open canned Beyers extend low?  That's funny.

 

[Frank I]

 
Quote:

The only way I can give the T1 a thorough listen with my equipment is if I buy one, and my initial listen put me off. The bass-depth of my 880 extends lower than any headphone I've heard including all the so-named bass-lovers cans, more bass than a DT880 tells me it's quantity, which I certainly don't need. My initial listen was that it is boomier, like a DT880 with a fat bottom and designer clothes. In fact the first thing that stood out was the low-end, either because it's the first and easiest thing I can ascertain, or because it is more than I'm used too. Is the T1 closer to neutral than the DT880, or is it just a matter of choice? For instance if I bought the T1, I'd find I had more bass, more treble energy, more soundstage and convince myself more is better, afterall it's a much more expensive headphone.
 

 
The graphs says the DT880 stays closer to neutral than the T1, but I know full well you can't know how a headphone sounds from a FR graph. I'm just going to throw this out there because I can; is there any possibility that Beyer, in light of other headphone manufacturers building thousand dollar flagships pushed out an all metal construction with more of everything from it's predecessors in hope it would meet everyone's expectations. This could explain why we have multiple versions of the T1, and why people like myself aren't entirely convinced.
 
What's the best amp for the T1, I would imagine like the 880 an OTL amp?

I can tell you the T1 is in another league from the 880. I had both here at the same time and sent the 880 back. But yes I use a Decware CSP-2 OTL and they respond as the 880 to my tube amp better than the SS amps I used by a wide margin. The T1 is so much better than the 880 has outsatnding sound stage best focus of any can I had and I had every flagship in my home. The T1 is my favorite can. Second time around for me.

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

You think the open canned Beyers extend low?  That's funny.

You're confusing extension with quantity. Open cans allow the sound to escape, with a closed can the sound has nowhere to go and so the bass will reverberate inside the cup. This reverberation can be interpreted as deep bass or perhaps sub-woofer like bass, but it's about as accurate as a bat playing darts.

 

[TMRaven]

Then please tell me what extension is, good sir.  If you can't hear the lowest bass notes in a song, then you're not hearing the low extension the headphone has to offer.  Ideally you want to feel it, but headphones do not produce visceral bass compared to full-sized speakers.

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

Then please tell me what extension is, good sir.  If you can't hear the lowest bass notes in a song, then you're not hearing the low extension the headphone has to offer.  Ideally you want to feel it, but headphones do not produce visceral bass compared to full-sized speakers.

Extension is hearing all the frequencies accurately, the 880s allow you to hear the lowest bass notes in a song. "Feeling it" and "visceral bass" are attributes of reverberation, again while this might be fun and add to the listening experience it isn't accurate. When listening to music I'll always take accuracy over fun, I'll take some Magnepans over a traditional satellite and subwoofer setup any day. For movies it's the other way around, an explosion should be felt, and I'm looking for fun over accuracy. You may say a bass drum or bass guitar should be felt, but in recording reverberation is recorded as noise, so any reverberation you hear in a recording is a result of coloration. Likewise a good listening room will remove these unwanted frequencies.

 

[TMRaven]

Bass guitars should not be felt, but kick drums do indeed 'kick' when played acoustically.  If the reverberation of a kick drum is natural, then it's only natural to have a system that can play that same reverberation back.  I've heard bass guitars in live acoustic mixes before, and they stand out considerably more than what any open can provide.  The difference can be having the bass player get lost in the mix of the song compared to having the bass player being heard correctly with a headphone that captures the low notes well enough.  And in other cases, in many synthesized and mastered songs (that is a huge chunk of music, mind you) there are reverberations that are meant to be heard in the song.  A lot of open cans lose that music data that's meant to be heard.
 
You havn't given me any objective evidence or example of bass extension other than a 'it's supposed to sound accurate' remark, which is not very convincing, because music is extremely broad.  I'm looking for something like +/- 3db down to 20hz while retaining a perfect sine wave type ordeal here.
 
 
 
 

 

[Subsequence]

Quote:

Bass guitars should not be felt, but kick drums do indeed 'kick' when played acoustically.  If the reverberation of a kick drum is natural, then it's only natural to have a system that can play that same reverberation back.  I've heard bass guitars in live acoustic mixes before, and they stand out considerably more than what any open can provide.  The difference can be having the bass player get lost in the mix of the song compared to having the bass player being heard correctly with a headphone that captures the low notes well enough.  And in other cases, in many synthesized and mastered songs (that is a huge chunk of music, mind you) there are reverberations that are meant to be heard in the song.  A lot of open cans lose that music data that's meant to be heard.
 
You havn't given me any objective evidence or example of bass extension other than a 'it's supposed to sound accurate' remark, which is not very convincing, because music is extremely broad.  I'm looking for something like +/- 3db down to 20hz while retaining a perfect sine wave type ordeal here.
 
 
 
 

Personally i have no problems following bass notes on the T1 infact i think the lower frequencies are one of the best characteristic's about it besides the glorious mid's. Do you have any opportunity to listen to them on a proper setup? 

 

[TMRaven]

No I have never auditioned the T1.  I have heard it extends lower than 880 and 990, which is a welcomed aspect to it.  I think the 990s extend decently low, but not extraordinarily low-- around to 40-50hz before they start to take a dip.
 

 

[Alghazanth]

Quote:

Yeah that's what I gathered from my initial listen. I wonder why Beyer choose to go so artificial with the bass, were they really trying to create an 880/990 monster rather than a new neutral reference phone? 

The T1's bass is not artificial... not completely neutral, but pretty close IME.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Quote:

The only way I can give the T1 a thorough listen with my equipment is if I buy one, and my initial listen put me off. The bass-depth of my 880 extends lower than any headphone I've heard including all the so-named bass-lovers cans, more bass than a DT880 tells me it's quantity, which I certainly don't need. My initial listen was that it is boomier, like a DT880 with a fat bottom and designer clothes. In fact the first thing that stood out was the low-end, either because it's the first and easiest thing I can ascertain, or because it is more than I'm used too. Is the T1 closer to neutral than the DT880, or is it just a matter of choice? For instance if I bought the T1, I'd find I had more bass, more treble energy, more soundstage and convince myself more is better, afterall it's a much more expensive headphone.
 

 
The graphs says the DT880 stays closer to neutral than the T1, but I know full well you can't know how a headphone sounds from a FR graph. I'm just going to throw this out there because I can; is there any possibility that Beyer, in light of other headphone manufacturers building thousand dollar flagships pushed out an all metal construction with more of everything from it's predecessors in hope it would meet everyone's expectations. This could explain why we have multiple versions of the T1, and why people like myself aren't entirely convinced.
 
What's the best amp for the T1, I would imagine like the 880 an OTL amp?

Actually the graphs say that the T1s are closer to neutral IMO. The DT880s roll off their sub bass quicker and their treble spike kicks in sooner. Throw in the better soundstaging, instrumental separation, clarity and detail....its really not even close IMO.

 

[Kernmac]

No headphone can be completely neutral.  The T1 is not simply a hotted up DT880, it is a different sounding headphone IMO, they have similarities, but T1 is not DT880s big brother.  The T1 for money is a more complete headphone, more body to the sound (that shouldn't be interpretted as simply more bass).  I like the DT880  but I felt it was a little distant/thin at times.  The T1 does everything better (inclduing a more realistic soundstage), and it is not simply a DT880 with bloated or boomy bass IMO.  For those that have heard it and conclude differently, then save your money.  Everyone's ears and perspective vary somewhat.

 

[Katun]

Would a perfectly neutral headphone even be all that great to listen to?

 

[MacedonianHero]

Quote:

Would a perfectly neutral headphone even be all that great to listen to?

Absolutely it would....a neutral/natural headphone would give you what the artist intended for you to hear. If you don't like what you're hearing...then you'll need new music. Coloured headphones are like looking at a painting through filtered lenses....you don't really see what the artist intended. Audio gear is the same way...the less it filters and the more it shows through (transparency) the better it is IMO.

 

[leng jai]

Does this theory only work for good recordings though? I have a hard time believing some of the garbage mastering these days is what an artist intended for you to hear.
 
Quote:

Absolutely it would....a neutral/natural headphone would give you what the artist intended for you to hear. If you don't like what you're hearing...then you'll need new music. Coloured headphones are like looking at a painting through filtered lenses....you don't really see what the artist intended. Audio gear is the same way...the less it filters and the more it shows through (transparency) the better it is IMO.

 

 

[MacedonianHero]

Quote:

Does this theory only work for good recordings though? I have a hard time believing some of the garbage mastering these days is what an artist intended for you to hear.
 


 

Colourations won't make garbage recordings sound better.....better recordings will.
 
That's why I'm "upgrading" my Pink Floyd catalog (all 14 CDs) to the new remasters once released in September. Many forget that the source is VERY important in the audio chain. Garbage in = Garbage out.