[zhenya]

That's what most of us in this hobby has come to realize. There are some thing in audio which we cannot measure yet. Take the Violectric amps for example. They are built out of measurements as well like the Objective2. They measure both "beyond what our ear can hear". So in theory they should sound alike. But those who have heard them both side by side can say that this is not the case. This is were the hardcore objectionist have a problem to explain where the differences in sound can come from. Well, some might say they don't hear the difference. But then they should be happy with their Objective2 anyways.

As a pretty adamant objectivist in the past, I'm slowly coming around myself on this issue, not the least because of how amazing the HD800's sound and the differences they can highlight. One thing I have found for certain is that one cannot dive right into making comparisons or everything will in fact sound largely the same (barring massive changes which is not what we are usually after at this level). For me at least, I really do require a warmup period where I just listen and settle in. Then, again largely barring massive changes, I have to listen to each change for some time before coming to a conclusion. Instant swapping is surprisingly ineffective for me again unless the changes are large. Reflecting on this recently I thought of the following comparison that I haven't heard put forth before. Maybe you guys can tell me what you think.

My neighbor is a fine botanical artist who does world-class highly detailed paintings of flowers and plants. We have several of her original pieces and a couple of prints as well as cards, etc. To compare the really good prints with the original with a quick look one would not be able to easily tell the difference. However if one were to spend some time acquainting themselves with the works, the differences would begin to reveal themselves. These works are so detailed that at her openings she provides magnifying glasses to visitors. Comparing them side by side with a glass the differences begin to become apparent. At the same token, stepping back and taking in the entire work as a whole, you begin to see that the original has a greater dynamic range and subtle shifts in the lighting can have a great effect on the whole. Still, given a quick a/b where one was only able to view a single image at a time (as we are necessarily limited with audio) I imagine most people not familiar with the works would have a very hard time identifying the original. To me this speaks volumes about the efficacy of double blind tests in audio. One must really spend a lot of time with equipment getting to know it, getting to feel what it sounds like before making a judgement, yet comparison tests rarely allow for this. This conundrum is further exacerbated by the fact that there is so much nonsense pawned for a lot of money in this business which really only serves to muddy the waters further, however I'm increasingly convinced of the value of just listening and going with your feelings when making a decision.

 

[PleasantSounds]

[..]  This is were the hardcore objectionist have a problem to explain where the differences in sound can come from. Well, some might say they don't hear the difference. But then they should be happy with their Objective2 anyways.

 
No they don't: they already know that everything outside frequency response and signal to noise is a placebo. And they have links to prove it. So the O2 is perfect because if you hear something different from another amp it's only your mind playing tricks on you.
 
But seriously: all the measurements are done with certain load plugged to the output. That load may simulate how one headphone behaves, but not all of them. For planars it's relatively easy as their response is quite linear, but just look at the impedance to frequency graphs of a few dynamic headphones: they are all over the place. For the HD800 the impedance changes between 300 and 600 Ohm and how this variation is handled changes from amp to amp. It shouldn't take voodoo to comprehend that.

 

[Sorrodje]

As a pretty adamant objectivist in the past, I'm slowly coming around myself on this issue, not the least because of how amazing the HD800's sound and the differences they can highlight. One thing I have found for certain is that one cannot dive right into making comparisons or everything will in fact sound largely the same (barring massive changes which is not what we are usually after at this level). For me at least, I really do require a warmup period where I just listen and settle in. Then, again largely barring massive changes, I have to listen to each change for some time before coming to a conclusion. Instant swapping is surprisingly ineffective for me again unless the changes are large. Reflecting on this recently I thought of the following comparison that I haven't heard put forth before. Maybe you guys can tell me what you think.

My neighbor is a fine botanical artist who does world-class highly detailed paintings of flowers and plants. We have several of her original pieces and a couple of prints as well as cards, etc. To compare the really good prints with the original with a quick look one would not be able to easily tell the difference. However if one were to spend some time acquainting themselves with the works, the differences would begin to reveal themselves. These works are so detailed that at her openings she provides magnifying glasses to visitors. Comparing them side by side with a glass the differences begin to become apparent. At the same token, stepping back and taking in the entire work as a whole, you begin to see that the original has a greater dynamic range and subtle shifts in the lighting can have a great effect on the whole. Still, given a quick a/b where one was only able to view a single image at a time (as we are necessarily limited with audio) I imagine most people not familiar with the works would have a very hard time identifying the original. To me this speaks volumes about the efficacy of double blind tests in audio. One must really spend a lot of time with equipment getting to know it, getting to feel what it sounds like before making a judgement, yet comparison tests rarely allow for this. This conundrum is further exacerbated by the fact that there is so much nonsense pawned for a lot of money in this business which really only serves to muddy the waters further, however I'm increasingly convinced of the value of just listening and going with your feelings when making a decision.

 
I'm in the same boat and have exactly the same feelings.
 
I would just like to add one point. In the audio business ,It seems hard to find its own "right" path between people who only trust measures ( objectivists) and people who only trust prices ( more expensive equal better) . The most odd phenomenon is in audio , people come on forum to say how much they're happy with their new gear. everywhere else people come to talk about issues or problems.

. Strange business.

 

[rgs9200m]

All amps sound different.

 

[koiloco]

   
I'm in the same boat and have exactly the same feelings.
 
I would just like to add one point. In the audio business ,It seems hard to find its own "right" path between people who only trust measures ( objectivists) and people who only trust prices ( more expensive equal better) . The most odd phenomenon is in audio , people come on forum to say how much they're happy with their new gear. everywhere else people come to talk about issues or problems.

. Strange business.

+1

 

[blackwolf1006]

I listened to Dr Chesky Binaural Album on the HD800 yesterday. it was a little strange. I actually felt the air hitting my air when he whispered in the mic. I just keep getting more impressed by this headphone every day.

 

[Hal X]

Hey guys, it's been 8 months since I got my pair of HD800s. I love these headphones, their sense of space and transparency. Currently I am using a O2/ODAC combo and  I'd like to upgrade to something more refined , soundstage is great with this combo but the sound is a bit boring. I don't find it harsh or bright, just a bit lifeless. I considered some options(max budget about 600 euro including shipping and import taxes, only solid state):
1) Buy a new DAC, I found The Arcam irDAC quite interesting and read many good reviews about them; keep the O2 as amp;
 
 2)Buy a Questyle Q192, I heard it pairs very well with these headphones,and thus I would have a DAC/amp combo;
 
 3)Something else you think would be better at this price range.
 
What do you think/suggest?

 

[zhenya]

  Hey guys, it's been 8 months since I got my pair of HD800s. I love these headphones, their sense of space and transparency. Currently I am using a O2/ODAC combo and  I'd like to upgrade to something more refined , soundstage is great with this combo but the sound is a bit boring. I don't find it harsh or bright, just a bit lifeless. I considered some options(max budget about 600 euro including shipping and import taxes, only solid state):
1) Buy a new DAC, I found The Arcam irDAC quite interesting and read many good reviews about them; keep the O2 as amp;
 
 2)Buy a Questyle Q192, I heard it pairs very well with these headphones,and thus I would have a DAC/amp combo;
 
 3)Something else you think would be better at this price range.
 
What do you think/suggest?

 
http://www.lake-people.de/produktdetails/product/HPA_V100.html

 

[Hal X]

   
http://www.lake-people.de/produktdetails/product/HPA_V100.html

Thanks. I forgot to add that I'd like to mantain the best transparency and soundstage possible.
 
So you think I should keep the ODAC?

 

[zhenya]

  Thanks. I forgot to add that I'd like to mantain the best transparency and soundstage possible.
 
So you think I should keep the ODAC?

I don't know exactly. I would do some further research to see what others think of the Violectric stuff with the HD800's, but knowing their general principles and hearing your wants, I think it might be a good match.
 
You can add a DAC to most of the Violectric amps for not very much extra. I doubt they are top tier, but they are probably well designed. You may also wish to keep the two separate, in that case I would personally do the amp before the DAC.

 

[Hal X]

  I don't know exactly. I would do some further research to see what others think of the Violectric stuff with the HD800's, but knowing their general principles and hearing your wants, I think it might be a good match.
 
You can add a DAC to most of the Violectric amps for not very much extra. I doubt they are top tier, but they are probably well designed. You may also wish to keep the two separate, in that case I would personally do the amp before the DAC.

Again, thanks. Have you heard about the Questyle Q192? If you did, what do you think? 

 

[zhenya]

  Again, thanks. Have you heard about the Questyle Q192? If you did, what do you think? 

Sorry, I have not.
 
It is my opinion that the HD800 is good enough that it will highlight the flaws in almost any gear, so my personal suggestion would be to buy the best amp you can for it, and then in the future buy the best DAC. In the long run this will provide a better system for less money than buying a series of mid-level equipment especially if that equipment is integrated. Remember that amplifiers tend to remain relevant for a lot longer than DAC's so it's nice to be able to upgrade them independently.

 

[Sorrodje]

  Thanks. I forgot to add that I'd like to mantain the best transparency and soundstage possible.
 
So you think I should keep the ODAC?

 
Personaly ? i'd prefer to keep the O2 and sell the Odac. Try a little Schiit Modi instead of Odac for example. I didn't hear it myself but I heard and read positive opinions from reliable people here or there.  Then, you'll be able to make your own opinion for a reasonable amount of money.


 Currently, I'm seriously trying a Beresford Bushmaster mkII. 210$ for U.S people I think . IMO it trounces the ODac and compete way above its price. Not tried with the O2 yet but I will. The headphone output seems decent but not neutral IMO.

 

[Hal X]

   
Personaly ? i'd prefer to keep the O2 and sell the Odac. Try a little Schiit Modi instead of Odac for example. I didn't hear it myself but I heard and read positive opinions from reliable people here or there.  Then, you'll be able to make your own opinion for a reasonable amount of money.


 Currently, I'm seriously trying a Beresford Bushmaster mkII. 210$ for U.S people I think . IMO it trounces the ODac and compete way abov its price. Not tried with the O2 yet but I will. The headphone output seems decent but not neutral IMO.

The Caiman MkII caught my interest... any comparison with the irDAC (wich was praised by many)?

 

[BournePerfect]

  All amps sound different.

 
It must be distortion. Only the O2 is true.
 
Welcome to Head-fi, sorry about your common senses.