[Digitalis]

At some point in our lives we have have to mourn the loss of a component in our sound systems, and after moving house for the second time this year I have discovered that my 9 year old amp is irreparably messed up ( left channels are 1/4th volume compared to the right, center channel is also affected, sub channel now has a ton of cross talk)
 
What compounds the dilemma is finding high quality PC audio hardware here in Australia..which is seriously frustrating.
 
So instead of trying to tediously repair and maintain my sound system and work around its aging components: I'm just going to chuck the whole lot: studio monitors, amp, and sub and all and start anew. I'm a classical musician and I'll admit my standards of music reproduction has evolved to the point where I can't say I was all that happy with the qualities of my old sound system, bass was muddy the highs were clear and mids were full but everything under 400hz was rather uninspired, anything below 90hz was imprecise,muffled and sluggish.
 
 I already have a creative X-FI Titanium soundcard that has survived many PC upgrades due to the fact that it provides excellent optical output with the added benefit of being able to decode DTS.
 
This is what I have in mind: use the optical output from my existing soundcard (X-FI titanium) and run it to a Creative X7 which will be connected to a pair of Audioengine 5+ speakers* and an Audioengine S8 sub.
 
Why not run the optical out from my PC to another, cheaper (and possibly better) DAC rather than the expensive X7 I hear you say? well the X7 is more or less a standalone audio amp and has a lot of connectivity options**, and my computer is big, heavy, and watercooled. It chews up a ton of power [it's primarily a photo editing platform for my work, crammed full of hard drives. I also use it as a gaming rig -  and it is a rather high-end one at that, so it is not easy to move at all]. 
 
Now I have looked into some other solutions, Klipsch promedia, Swan,Creative,VAnatoo etc,etc so on and so forth. But the market for PC speakers is a very small niche, speakers like the Vanatoo Transparent one aren't available here and 95% of what is on the PC audio market here in Australia is complete rubbish. So I'd rather go for something that is well built, going to last, has decent connectivity options, and more importantly: produce sound that I'm happy with.
 
Has anyone had any experience using the Creative X7 with Audioengine speakers?
 
 
* I realize that the passive Audioengine P4 speakers might be a better choice, but with the planned addition of a powered S8 sub, i'm concerned that the passives will possibly get overpowered by the sub at higher volume levels. The standard Creative X7 can only drive so much power [50W per channel max]
 
** Some of which do not exist on my current PC.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digitalis /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Why not run the optical out from my PC to another, cheaper (and possibly better) DAC rather than the expensive X7? I hear you say, well the X7 is more or less a standalone audio amp and has a lot of connectivity options**, and my computer is big, heavy, and watercooled,adn chews up a ton of power [it's primarily a photo editing platform for my work, crammed full of hard drives. I also use it as a gaming rig -  and it is a rather high-end one at that, so it is not easy to move at all]. 

 

It's a little expensive but barring an impractically large HT receiver with the same price, or a more expensive amp that might have a Subwoofer output but no stereo preamp outputs (like the NAD D3020 or practically any new stereo receiver). Alternately, depending on DSP features, you could ditch the internal soundcard and just use the X7 (it has its own DSP so using USB to it is alright, again depending on the features you'll use), freeing up that PCI slot for an SSD for example.

 

That said, it's still $399, and you get a speaker amplifier built in that would still be inferior vs a bi-amp speaker set-up (which gives you control over the gain bias of the midwoofer vs the tweeter), but the benefit to a dedicated subwoofer output is to control the crossover and gain easier. That does not mean it cannot be made to work with just a stereo output, you just give up these controls but if you're not the type to go from ghetto Cadillac blasting Ludacris or Lil John to practically any other kind of music, then there's really no need to have all that easily accessible. Set it once and the only thing you can vary is the EQ.

 

A studio subwoofer used with studio monitors can take the line signal out of a preamp, run it through some kind of L-Pad or similar circuit to get the signal it will run through its low pass crossover then into its own amp stage to run the subwoofer while simultaneously send the same input signal back out towards the main monitors. In this way you can use a stereo output with a subwoofer, you just set the gain and crossover. Note that some subs have a low pass while a few also have a high pass filter on its line output, so the first kind only needs you to set the crossover to where the mains drop off while the second gives you a little bit more flexibility in how much work you want the sub or the mains to do.

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digitalis /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

This is what I have in mind: use the optical output from my existing soundcard (X-FI titanium) and run it to a Creative X7 which will be connected to a pair of Audioengine 5+ speakers* and an Audioengine S8 sub.

 

Now I have looked into some other solutions, Klipsch promedia, Swan,Creative etc,etc so on and so forth. But the market for PC speakers is a very small niche - 90% of what is on the PC audio market here in Australia is complete rubbish. So I'd rather go for something that is well built, going to last, has decent connectivity options, and more importantly: produce sound that I'm happy with.

 

Given what I described above, I'd rather use speakers like the KRK Rokit 6 paired with the KRK subwoofer with something like an AudioGD NFB-11 along with your existing soundcard. This can come out a little bit more expensive overall but given how A5's have a tendency to kick the bucket due to a proprietary chip burning out, I'd try to avoid that. Not sure if they fixed this on the A5+, but you still get better specs overall out of the Rokit 6 - larger midwoofer, generally more rugged design cabinet finish and amp, plus the bi-amp feature that lets you tweak the tweeter-midwoofer amp gain balance.

 

 

Quote:

 
* I realize that the passive Audioengine P4 speakers might be a better choice, but with the planned addition of a powered S8 sub, i'm concerned that the passives will possibly get overpowered by the sub at higher volume levels. The standard Creative X7 can only drive so much power [50W per channel max]

 
You can always just turn down the gain on the sub. And in terms of overall SPL and having neighbors but not a sound proof room, even the bi-amp set-ups on studio monitors are more for allowing relative gain control than just having gobs of power. It's the same thing with serious sound audio set-ups except that on top of gain separate amplifier channels also allows for the DSP to set individual time delay settings on each transducer to sync with the subwoofer.

 

[Digitalis]

you could ditch the internal soundcard and just use the X7 (it has its own DSP so using USB to it is alright, again depending on the features you'll use), freeing up that PCI slot for an SSD for example.

 
This thought had occurred to me, but I'll subject it to a comparative analysis to the X7 when I get it - though from some of the reviews I have been reading on here and other sites the Creative X7 is very good.

Given what I described above, I'd rather use speakers like the KRK Rokit 6 paired with the KRK subwoofer with something like an AudioGD NFB-11 along with your existing soundcard. This can come out a little bit more expensive overall but given how A5's have a tendency to kick the bucket due to a proprietary chip burning out, I'd try to avoid that. Not sure if they fixed this on the A5+, but you still get better specs overall out of the Rokit 6 - larger midwoofer, generally more rugged design cabinet finish and amp, plus the bi-amp feature that lets you tweak the tweeter-midwoofer amp gain balance

 
Thanks, I'll look into those. They are well within my price range. Regarding the Audioengine A5+ issues: Yes, I'd like to avoid that. Hence why I was considering getting the passive speakers, as there won't be any expensive proprietary electronic components to fry. The AudioGD NFB-11 is interesting, however it doesn't have the Iphone/android connectivity the the X7 has.  It also doesn't have a dedicated LFE output - that would be a distinct advantage over the Creative  X7. I'm a bit neurotic about tweaking crossovers.
 

having neighbors but not a sound proof room

 
That isn't a problem, I have sound dampening material on my walls in my music rehearsal room. I play the piccolo, and I don't hear any complaints when I play the piccolo parts from the 2nd Movt of Shostakovitch 5th symphony...or even the end of the 4th movt.

 

[PurpleAngel]

  At some point in our lives we have have to mourn the loss of a component in our sound systems, and after moving house for the second time this year I have discovered that my 9 year old amp is irreparably messed up ( left channels are 1/4th volume compared to the right, center channel is also affected, sub channel now has a ton of cross talk)
What compounds the dilemma is finding high quality PC audio hardware here in Australia..which is seriously frustrating.
So instead of trying to tediously repair and maintain my sound system and work around its aging components: I'm just going to chuck the whole lot: studio monitors, amp, and sub and all and start anew. I'm a classical musician and I'll admit my standards of music reproduction has evolved to the point where I can't say I was all that happy with the qualities of my old sound system, bass was muddy the highs were clear and mids were full but everything under 400hz was rather uninspired, anything below 90hz was imprecise,muffled and sluggish.
I already have a creative X-FI Titanium soundcard that has survived many PC upgrades due to the fact that it provides excellent optical output with the added benefit of being able to decode DTS.
This is what I have in mind: use the optical output from my existing soundcard (X-FI titanium) and run it to a Creative X7 which will be connected to a pair of Audioengine 5+ speakers* and an Audioengine S8 sub.
Why not run the optical out from my PC to another, cheaper (and possibly better) DAC rather than the expensive X7 I hear you say? well the X7 is more or less a standalone audio amp and has a lot of connectivity options**, and my computer is big, heavy, and watercooled. It chews up a ton of power [it's primarily a photo editing platform for my work, crammed full of hard drives. I also use it as a gaming rig -  and it is a rather high-end one at that, so it is not easy to move at all]. 
Now I have looked into some other solutions, Klipsch promedia, Swan,Creative,VAnatoo etc,etc so on and so forth. But the market for PC speakers is a very small niche, speakers like the Vanatoo Transparent one aren't available here and 95% of what is on the PC audio market here in Australia is complete rubbish. So I'd rather go for something that is well built, going to last, has decent connectivity options, and more importantly: produce sound that I'm happy with.

 
Any chance you have access to JBL LSR305 (or maybe Yamaha) studio monitors, I would get the JBL over Audioengine.
Assuming you would also get a JBL LSR310 sub-woofer.
 
Titanium-HD > sub-woofer (LSR310) > studio monitors (LSR305).
 
I think getting the Creative X7 is kind of a waste of money, for what your going to use it for.
 
You could get a Used Creative Labs Titanium-HD sound card and connect it's RCA line-output jacks straight to the studio monitors.
So you get a nice DAC quality function and still have all the features that your current Titanium (non-HD) card had.

 

[Digitalis]

   
Any chance you have access to JBL LSR305 (or maybe Yamaha) studio monitors, I would get the JBL over Audioengine.
Assuming you would also get a JBL LSR310 sub-woofer.
 
Titanium-HD > sub-woofer (LSR310) > studio monitors (LSR305).
 
I think getting the Creative X7 is kind of a waste of money, for what your going to use it for.
 
You could get a Used Creative Labs Titanium-HD sound card and connect it's RCA line-output jacks straight to the studio monitors.
So you get a nice DAC quality function and still have all the features that your current Titanium (non-HD) card had.

 
As a matter of fact, yes. The JBL's are rather easy to come by here in Oz. it turns out I have a colleague that uses them - I'll have to come around to his place and listen in on a burned in pair. He doesn't have the sub though, IMO to properly reproduce the range of the piano a good sub makes a big difference.

 

[PurpleAngel]

   
As a matter of fact, yes. The JBL's are rather easy to come by here in Oz. it turns out I have a colleague that uses them - I'll have to come around to his place and listen in on a burned in pair. He doesn't have the sub though, IMO to properly reproduce the range of the piano a good sub makes a big difference.

 
I see Audio Engine A5+ as something that comes with extra bells and whistles for the everyday consumer who is looking for something easy to hook up.
While the JBL studio monitors are a little more for a professional & serious user, who does not want to pay extra for bells and whistles they have no need for.
 
If you can't find a good price on a used Titanium-HD sound card, you could get an optical DAC ($60+ shipping) from Hifimediy.
http://hifimediy.com/SPDIF-9018-DAC
Plug in between the Titanium (non-HD) optical output port and the studio monitors.
 
Any chance you could list the websites of where you can buy studio monitors.
Might be able to recommend other brands of studio monitors

 

[Digitalis]

Any chance you could list the websites of where you can buy studio monitors.

Derringers
Allans Music
 
When I visited Allans Music store In Adelaide they had a pair of Rockit KRK5 monitors in their demo area, they also had a pair of Yamaha HS5 monitors and a pair of Behringer B2030A Truth 6" monitors - all three are comfortably within my price range. I had a high resolution WAV recording of Radiohead - Burn the witch to put them all through a short test. Radiohead songs are almost designed for picking out weaknesses in any sound system. I'll be honest, I didn't like the Rockit KRK5s at all. They might be fine for listening to Skrillex,Pendulum, Nick Skitz or bass heavy game sound tracks. But to my ears, vocals lacked depth and sounded oddly compressed. There was a weird bump in the lower mid frequencies which made the bowing on the cellos sound louder than the pizzicato on the upper strings, in general the KrK5's fouled up the mixing. I'm sure with careful application of equalization this could be eliminated but straight off the shelf they did not give me a good impression at all.
 
Now when I listened to the the Yamaha HS5s the experience was...stunning, compared to the KRK5s Vocals had presence and clarity to them, there weren't any detectable bumps or holes in the frequency range from the HS5s. The harmonics on the strings at the end of burn the witch were clear all the way from to bottom up to the top of the range.  One criticism I will level at HS5s is that they did sound a bit too bright. There was a detectable roll off at the lower mid frequency range,* however a sub can bolster that range with ease.
 
The Behringer B2030A "truth" monitors were superb,  though the Yamaha monitors aren't far behind them - there was a bigger difference between the KRK5 Vs Yamaha HS5 than the Yamaha HS5 Vs the Behringer B2030A. The Behringer monitors had stronger bass and mellower sounding tweeters than the Yamaha. It is going to be hard to choose between these two.
 
I know it might be considered to be a bit unfair to criticize KRK5 during the short time I had to listen to each set of monitors, but these are the impressions I left the store with.
 
 
*I'd say somewhere in the vicinity of 80~70hz, which coincidentally is the lowest crossover point for the Yamaha S8 subwoofer.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Originally Posted by Digitalis /img/forum/go_quote.gif

When I visited Allans Music store In Adelaide they had a pair of Rockit KRK5 monitors in their demo area, they also had a pair of Yamaha HS5 monitors and a pair of Behringer B2030A Truth 6" monitors - all three are comfortably within my price range. I had a high resolution WAV recording of Radiohead - Burn the witch to put them all through a short test. Radiohead songs are almost designed for picking out weaknesses in any sound system. I'll be honest, I didn't like the Rockit KRK5s at all. They might be fine for listening to Skrillex,Pendulum, Nick Skitz or bass heavy game sound tracks. But to my ears, vocals lacked depth and sounded oddly compressed. There was a weird bump in the lower mid frequencies which made the bowing on the cellos sound louder than the pizzicato on the upper strings, in general the KrK6's fouled up the mixing. I'm sure with careful application of equalization this could be eliminated but straight off the shelf they did not give me a good impression at all.

 

Now when I listened to the the Yamaha HS5s the experience was...stunning, compared to the KRK5s Vocals had presence and clarity to them, there weren't any detectable bumps or holes in the frequency range from the HS5s. The harmonics on the strings at the end of burn the witch were clear all the way from to bottom up to the top of the range.  One criticism I will level at HS5s is that they did sound a bit too bright. There was a detectable roll off at the lower mid frequency range,* however a sub can bolster that range with ease.

 

The Behringer B2030A "truth" monitors were superb,  though the Yamaha monitors aren't far behind them - there was a bigger difference between the KRK5 Vs Yamaha HS5 than the Yamaha HS5 Vs the Behringer B2030A. The Behringer monitors had stronger bass and mellower sounding tweeters than the Yamaha. It is going to be hard to choose between these two.

 

I know it might be considered to be a bit unfair to criticize KRK5 during the short time I had to listen to each set of monitors, but these are the impressions I left the store with.

 

*I'd say somewhere in the vicinity of 80~70hz, which coincidentally is the lowest crossover point for the Yamaha S8 subwoofer.

 

The KRKs are the least accurate of any in its price range and I've seen more people use it for playback of a number of different genres than monitoring (or primarily listening and then pro applications second). They have an upper bass bump that works well for many genres to not really make a subwoofer totally important. Think of it like a Grado SR80.

 

That said, did you play with the tweeter gain? Because for the most part it usually comes down to what the default setting is and what you can set them to. My friend uses his at -3dB in his room but when he brings them outside when we're grilling I set it back to 0.

 

[Digitalis]

The KRKs are the least accurate of any in its price range

 
That is putting it mildly. Though the good part is that I can get the Yamaha monitors are at a good price, and they can be connected to the output from the sub so crossover can be handled completely in hardware and the HS5's also have a tweeter gain switch which gives 2+/- of adjustment which may prove useful.

 

[Digitalis]

There might be a problem with using the Creative X7 with the Yamaha HS5 - the input impendence on the HS5 monitors is 10K ohms, the max output impedence supported by the creative X7 is 4~8 ohms. Why is the input impendence on the HS5s so damn high?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

There might be a problem with using the Creative X7 with the Yamaha HS5 - the input impendence on the HS5 monitors is 10K ohms, the max output impedence supported by the creative X7 is 4~8 ohms. Why is the input impendence on the HS5s so damn high?

 

The 4-8ohm max impedance is for the speaker amplifier output of the X7, marked in red below. It's meant for driving passive speakers. If you're using powered speakers with their own amplifiers built into the cabinet what you need is a line/preamp output, encircled in blue.

 

Which reminds me about something - check and make sure with Creative that the volume control on the front of the X7 actually works as a volume control so that you can have one master knob as opposed to using Windows or worse, fumbling around with the gain knob on the Left monitor, the Right monitor, and the sub every time you change the overall volume.

 

[PurpleAngel]

There might be a problem with using the Creative X7 with the Yamaha HS5 - the input impendence on the HS5 monitors is 10K ohms, the max output impedance supported by the creative X7 is 4~8 ohms. Why is the input impenitence on the HS5s so damn high?

 
Studio monitors come with their own built in speaker amplifiers.
So there is no need for using the speaker amplifiers built into the Creative X7.
Kind of why i think your buying the Creative X7 is a waste of cash.

 

[Digitalis]

thanks for explaining that protege! and yes, I read the manual for the X7 the volume control knob is indeed a master volume control for all outputs.

Purpleangel - The reason i'm after the Creative X7 is that i'm after a dac/amp that can handle input from my pc or laptop but also be a standalone amp that can handle input from other devices when my pc isn't turned on. I really don't want to plug an expensive set of speakers into the a crappy laptop output or headphone jack on my phone.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

thanks for explaining that protege! and yes, I read the manual for the X7 the volume control knob is indeed a master volume control for all outputs.

Purpleangel - The reason i'm after the Creative X7 is that i'm after a dac/amp that can handle input from my pc or laptop but also be a standalone amp that can handle input from other devices when my pc isn't turned on. I really don't want to plug an expensive set of speakers into the a crappy laptop output or headphone jack on my phone.

 
The only thing left then is to find the right cable to hook up the sub. Note that on soundcards they use a stereo socket to get a signal from the 3.5mm jack and then it splits to the sub and center channels. You need a 3.5mm male to 2xRCA female for example, and then if the subwoofer only has one input, figure out which of the 2xRCA carries the sub signal. You can do that by adjusting the sub settings on the X7's DSP suite and see which one is affected. Then wrap the unused socket with electrical tape.

 

[Digitalis]

I have some OFE cable with which I can make up a 3.5mm jack to XLR, the sub uses R and L XLR inputs as you can plug the XLR connectors from the speakers into the sub and allow it to handle crossover in hardware*. It also simplifies the cabling and would allow for volume control across the entire system rather than just the two monitors.
 
*which, in my mind is better than software crossovers.