The discovery thread!
Dec 13, 2021 at 10:03 PM Post #61,171 of 103,118
My Symphonium Helios review has been uploaded to Head-fi. Quite a gem among the kilobuck entry IEM I have ever tried, please check it out if you are interested.

https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/symphonium-helios.25536/reviews#review-27497

Symphonium-Helios-32.png
 
Dec 13, 2021 at 10:05 PM Post #61,172 of 103,118
DISCOVERY! Thank you to @Dobrescu George for his sparkling and unbelievably accurate review of the Hifiman RE800 Silver.

So these IEM's were originally $600 and the replacement for the RE600 Songbird 2. Now they are $150.00.

How could these single dynamic "topology driver" IEM's fly so far under the radar?! I have an idea why. First is the myth that Dr Fang and Hifiman don't know how to tune for bass. Yes, several of their IEM's, some quite notorious in a positive sense, lacked bass weight and impact. The RE400 and RE0 are examples. The RE800 silver proved this is a false myth. The bass isn't just present, it's weighty, punchy and most certainly present...WITHOUT BLEED. It's a really fast bass, hard hitting bass, deep bass, and punchy bass. The other thing that might have chased some away is the non-detachable cable? It's a high quality cable, so not a problem for me. The highs are crystalline and extended. Timbre and resolution are some of the best i've ever heard from a dynamic driver. It stomps all over the other Hifiman's in my collection, and completely destroys the Songbird. With a timbre that comes crazy close to the JVC woodie, the resolution is top notch. Not quite EST level rezzo, but within the ballpark. It's better than the Sennheisers (IE800, 100pro, 300, and 40pro), and as I said, within distance of the DUNU EST112. The soundstage is wide, but lacks a bit of 3D. I think this is where the EST112 wins. It's got a bit more 3D presentation, but gets trumped in timbre, bass punch, and the treble is clearly better on the RE800 silver. This is am extension without being hot or sharp. It's hard to explain, other than it's one of the most refined and extended trebles I've ever heard in a single dynamic. This is slightly V shaped, so it has slightly recessed vocals, but it's not anything that I would mark as a negative. The shape makes for a fun, engaging, and creamy smooth signature (lush), with good thump when called upon. Now this is OOTB. Hardly any burn in. I can only imagine how these things will sound when fully burned in? They parlay wonderful details. detail retrieval is above average, but it's not some analytical cold sound. No. The present bass keeps these warmish and detailed. Fun and engaging. The aluminum housing is so tiny. These things are comfy. I started with the stock tips, moved to the Spiral Dots++, and then settled on the UE silicone tips from my UE700. Pianos sound so effin good! Weighty and crystalline. Cymbals crash with a maturity and extension that made me smile ear to ear. These are one of the biggest surprises to come across my ears in several years. These beat my Senns, the Dita Truth, the JVC FW01, the Moondrops, the other Hifiman's, and Sony EX1000. The lack of detachable cable, v shaped sig, and lack of 3D imaging might chase some away, but it doesn't me, and it stands toe to toe with the best of my collection past and present. These will fast become a favorite, and i'm sure will flip flop back and forth with my EST112 for my most used pair. What's next? 7 Hertz Timeless. You've got quite the fight ahead of you. Good luck.

I am always really happy to help!

7Hz Timeless is an odd one, very good bass, nice overall impact, not very natural midrange. If you like RE800 Silver, you may like Timeless, but they won't be as fun in the mids, but more fun in the lows :)
 
Dec 13, 2021 at 10:20 PM Post #61,173 of 103,118
DISCOVERY! Thank you to @Dobrescu George for his sparkling and unbelievably accurate review of the Hifiman RE800 Silver.

So these IEM's were originally $600 and the replacement for the RE600 Songbird 2. Now they are $150.00.

How could these single dynamic "topology driver" IEM's fly so far under the radar?! I have an idea why. First is the myth that Dr Fang and Hifiman don't know how to tune for bass. Yes, several of their IEM's, some quite notorious in a positive sense, lacked bass weight and impact. The RE400 and RE0 are examples. The RE800 silver proved this is a false myth. The bass isn't just present, it's weighty, punchy and most certainly present...WITHOUT BLEED. It's a really fast bass, hard hitting bass, deep bass, and punchy bass. The other thing that might have chased some away is the non-detachable cable? It's a high quality cable, so not a problem for me. The highs are crystalline and extended. Timbre and resolution are some of the best i've ever heard from a dynamic driver. It stomps all over the other Hifiman's in my collection, and completely destroys the Songbird. With a timbre that comes crazy close to the JVC woodie, the resolution is top notch. Not quite EST level rezzo, but within the ballpark. It's better than the Sennheisers (IE800, 100pro, 300, and 40pro), and as I said, within distance of the DUNU EST112. The soundstage is wide, but lacks a bit of 3D. I think this is where the EST112 wins. It's got a bit more 3D presentation, but gets trumped in timbre, bass punch, and the treble is clearly better on the RE800 silver. This is am extension without being hot or sharp. It's hard to explain, other than it's one of the most refined and extended trebles I've ever heard in a single dynamic. This is slightly V shaped, so it has slightly recessed vocals, but it's not anything that I would mark as a negative. The shape makes for a fun, engaging, and creamy smooth signature (lush), with good thump when called upon. Now this is OOTB. Hardly any burn in. I can only imagine how these things will sound when fully burned in? They parlay wonderful details. detail retrieval is above average, but it's not some analytical cold sound. No. The present bass keeps these warmish and detailed. Fun and engaging. The aluminum housing is so tiny. These things are comfy. I started with the stock tips, moved to the Spiral Dots++, and then settled on the UE silicone tips from my UE700. Pianos sound so effin good! Weighty and crystalline. Cymbals crash with a maturity and extension that made me smile ear to ear. These are one of the biggest surprises to come across my ears in several years. These beat my Senns, the Dita Truth, the JVC FW01, the Moondrops, the other Hifiman's, and Sony EX1000. The lack of detachable cable, v shaped sig, and lack of 3D imaging might chase some away, but it doesn't me, and it stands toe to toe with the best of my collection past and present. These will fast become a favorite, and i'm sure will flip flop back and forth with my EST112 for my most used pair. What's next? 7 Hertz Timeless. You've got quite the fight ahead of you. Good luck.
These sound like pretty good iems but I just want to point out the marketing just sounds like fluff for carbon nanotube diaphragm. I have a bit of beef with marketing fluff so don't mind this rant, just trying to say I wouldn't put too much salt into the any marketing hype, its mostly just all buzzwords. On another note, here's an interesting research paper on the effects of cnt on dlc film, measuring young's modulus: https://www.researchgate.net/figure...CNTs-doped-diamond-like-carbon_fig1_259418097

Claims of things like lower distortion are pretty silly cause even cheap $50 DD iems can measure very low distortion, and in fact lower than much more expensive iems. Really stiff drivers are very good for low distortion in high frequencies, but less stiff ones have lower distortion in low frequencies. Main way around this is to use composite drivers with stiff domes, and not stiff surrounds. For example, I believe the moon drop illumination does this using a peek surround and lcp dome. There's an excellent discussion on this here: https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/bacd37/-/ekaxsri

While composite drivers are expensive on large full size headphones you can find them even in cheap iems these days.

Different diaphragm materials will be better for different things, but beryllium is usually considered the best because of all the highest young's modulus materials it's the lightest by a long shot.

Really though, my main point here is, most of the marketing fluff between different companies is really just advertising the same things but in different words and are sometimes just straight up inaccurate or untrue (like the zex "electrostat"). Bio diaphragm driver? Probably just titanium. Graphene/dlc/cnt driver? They're some form of carbon driver, some will be good some will be bad but how they're being named or marketed is not an indicator of this at all.. the young's modulus alone between a good and bad one is SO big. We don't even know how many layers the diaphragm materials is (less is better). Beryllium or titanium driver? Could possibly just be titanium plated or beryllium coated. Composite driver? Well, we have no idea what surround material or dome material is being used, but a lot of manufactures don't even list/advertise what surround material is being used.

The main reason this marketing fluff is all moot, is that because even if there was a grain of truth to it, the dynamic driver will still only be as good as it's weakest link, and there are soo many factors to consider like the magnetic force (Tesla flux), diaphragm size, diaphragm stroke depth, resonance of the cavity material, cavity shape, damping factor, tuning, design and implemention, etc. I think we're all better off ignoring the marketing fluff because it would take an experienced and knowledgeable audio engineer PLUS all the data that most manufactures don't make publicly available to us to make heads or tails of all the marketing hype and if there's any weight to it. I feel it's one of those things where the more you know, the more you realize how insubstantial what you do know is and how out of your depth you are for even trying to understand.

This is off topic and not in response to your hifiman iem impression but I just want to say if anything I've realized even cheap iems can be good, and that you don't need the most expensive materials to make good stuff, and more over that you don't need the most expensive iem to get a good quality one. It's all about the design choices, implemention and quality. Of course good quality stuff will cost more but some companies/brands just straight up mark up things by ridiculous lengths just to sell their stuff as more premium. Just looking at some all ba sets and comparing how much the material cost would be to buy the main components for diy you'll quickly see brands like kinera and hifi boy charge ridiculous amounts compared to other brands selling similar level stuff for much cheaper. I haven't looked into too many brands yet but of the couple I've looked at, brands like bgvp, thieadio, and gs audio are usually very good about not marking up their iems too much more than their actual component costs, at least for the iems I checked which had their ba models listed. Brands like fiio, fearless audio, etc were somewhere in the middle about it. The particularly bad ones I noticed were brands like kinera, hifi boy, campfire and penon. You're basically paying a LOT for their inhouse sound, tuning, and designing chops, but are any of their iems really worth that difference? I think it's probably subjective but doesn't change the objective fact that you can get similar level iems for much cheaper than what I will call the snake oil brands. Some of these brands (cough, campfire) selling kilobuck range iems even use cheap bellsing clones.. do you know how cheap those are? You can get a compound/dual twfk driver for less than $5 for diy, whereas genuine Knowles stuff will cost four times as much or more for diy. Do your research guys, try to make informed purchasing decisions after a little due diligence. Don't buy into marketing fluff. Don't get fooled into thinking stuff is better than they actually are, relative to cheaper stuff I mean. You'll be surprised what you might learn and will save yourself from overspending on stuff that isn't worth it. Trust me, the iem market is saturated enough to have stuff that's as good quality as the snake oil brand stuff but for much less, just gotta search for it and do your research. If you're lucky you'll be able to find something that's just as good as the more expensive stuff without the expensive markup, and a tuning you actually like. The struggle is trying to find iems that fulfill both criteria, so good luck to everyone trying.
 
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Dec 14, 2021 at 12:28 AM Post #61,174 of 103,118
These sound like pretty good iems but I just want to point out the marketing just sounds like fluff for carbon nanotube diaphragm. I have a bit of beef with marketing fluff so don't mind this rant, just trying to say I wouldn't put too much salt into the any marketing hype, its mostly just all buzzwords. On another note, here's an interesting research paper on the effects of cnt on dlc film, measuring young's modulus: https://www.researchgate.net/figure...CNTs-doped-diamond-like-carbon_fig1_259418097

Claims of things like lower distortion are pretty silly cause even cheap $50 DD iems can measure very low distortion, and in fact lower than much more expensive iems. Really stiff drivers are very good for low distortion in high frequencies, but less stiff ones have lower distortion in low frequencies. Main way around this is to use composite drivers with stiff domes, and not stiff surrounds. For example, I believe the moon drop illumination does this using a peek surround and lcp dome. There's an excellent discussion on this here: https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/bacd37/-/ekaxsri

While composite drivers are expensive on large full size headphones you can find them even in cheap iems these days.

Different diaphragm materials will be better for different things, but beryllium is usually considered the best because of all the highest young's modulus materials it's the lightest by a long shot.

Really though, my main point here is, most of the marketing fluff between different companies is really just advertising the same things but in different words and are sometimes just straight up inaccurate or untrue (like the zex "electrostat"). Bio diaphragm driver? Probably just titanium. Graphene/dlc/cnt driver? They're some form of carbon driver, some will be good some will be bad but how they're being named or marketed is not an indicator of this at all.. the young's modulus alone between a good and bad one is SO big. We don't even know how many layers the diaphragm materials is (less is better). Beryllium or titanium driver? Could possibly just be titanium plated or beryllium coated. Composite driver? Well, we have no idea what surround material or dome material is being used, but a lot of manufactures don't even list/advertise what surround material is being used.

The main reason this marketing fluff is all moot, is that because even if there was a grain of truth to it, the dynamic driver will still only be as good as it's weakest link, and there are soo many factors to consider like the magnetic force (Tesla flux), diaphragm size, diaphragm stroke depth, resonance of the cavity material, cavity shape, damping factor, tuning, design and implemention, etc. I think we're all better off ignoring the marketing fluff because it would take an experienced and knowledgeable audio engineer PLUS all the data that most manufactures don't make publicly available to us to make heads or tails of all the marketing hype and if there's any weight to it. I feel it's one of those things where the more you know, the more you realize how insubstantial what you do know is and how out of your depth you are for even trying to understand.

This is off topic and not in response to your hifiman iem impression but I just want to say if anything I've realized even cheap iems can be good, and that you don't need the most expensive materials to make good stuff, and more over that you don't need the most expensive iem to get a good quality one. It's all about the design choices, implemention and quality. Of course good quality stuff will cost more but some companies/brands just straight up mark up things by ridiculous lengths just to sell their stuff as more premium. Just looking at some all ba sets and comparing how much the material cost would be to buy the main components for diy you'll quickly see brands like kinera and hifi boy charge ridiculous amounts compared to other brands selling similar level stuff for much cheaper. I haven't looked into too many brands yet but of the couple I've looked at, brands like bgvp, thieadio, and gs audio are usually very good about not marking up their iems too much more than their actual component costs, at least for the iems I checked which had their ba models listed. Brands like fiio, fearless audio, etc were somewhere in the middle about it. The particularly bad ones I noticed were brands like kinera, hifi boy, campfire and penon. You're basically paying a LOT for their inhouse sound, tuning, and designing chops, but are any of their iems really worth that difference? I think it's probably subjective but doesn't change the objective fact that you can get similar level iems for much cheaper than what I will call the snake oil brands. Some of these brands (cough, campfire) selling kilobuck range iems even use cheap bellsing clones.. do you know how cheap those are? You can get a compound/dual twfk driver for less than $5 for diy, whereas genuine Knowles stuff will cost four times as much or more for diy. Do your research guys, try to make informed purchasing decisions after a little due diligence. Don't buy into marketing fluff. Don't get fooled into thinking stuff is better than they actually are, relative to cheaper stuff I mean. You'll be surprised what you might learn and will save yourself from overspending on stuff that isn't worth it. Trust me, the iem market is saturated enough to have stuff that's as good quality as the snake oil brand stuff but for much less, just gotta search for it and do your research. If you're lucky you'll be able to find something that's just as good as the more expensive stuff without the expensive markup, and a tuning you actually like. The struggle is trying to find iems that fulfill both criteria, so good luck to everyone trying.
funny, because if you filter a lot of this rant, I tend to agree. For me, implementation and tuning is so much more of importance than material or cost of material. This comes in loud and clear with the DQ6, which are THREE cheap as chips drivers, nothing fancy, implemented very well, and giving you a high quality, high fidelity sound that's 80-85% of the technicalities and proficiencies of the much more expensive triple dynamics. So I tend to agree with you, even though you could have said it with 1,000 less words lol
 
Dec 14, 2021 at 12:53 AM Post #61,175 of 103,118
An IEM is more than the sum of its components and materials. Designing and bringing an IEM to market requires that knowledgeable personnel actually make the most of those parts. I have no love for brands like Kinera either but maybe that's worth keeping in mind when comparing the cost of parts vs the cost of IEMs.
 
Dec 14, 2021 at 12:36 PM Post #61,176 of 103,118
Shout out to DSNUTS, how are you bro?
It's been like what, 10 years back?
I'm just really delighted to be able to log in and locate this thread.
Ps: I've gone thru 4 pairs of HAFX-40 and about to burn in the last pair 😆
Went online to look for some cheap iems and ordered KZ-ZEX and EDX, omg ! Things have advanced so, so far !
 
Dec 14, 2021 at 12:52 PM Post #61,177 of 103,118
Wow its been a long time. We are good on the discovery thread as usual. Always looking at whats new. IEM game has advanced quite a bit since last you was around especially in the budget sector. Gains in SQ and advances in driver technology. Tunings have evolved too. So much to go over. Good to see you. Always love to see old timers of headfi come around.
 
Dec 14, 2021 at 12:57 PM Post #61,178 of 103,118
Dec 14, 2021 at 1:30 PM Post #61,179 of 103,118
Wow its been a long time. We are good on the discovery thread as usual. Always looking at whats new. IEM game has advanced quite a bit since last you was around especially in the budget sector. Gains in SQ and advances in driver technology. Tunings have evolved too. So much to go over. Good to see you. Always love to see old timers of headfi come around.
Would teleport over and give you a hug if not for Omicron variant 😂
Yup, had to drop out to focus on career and raising kids 🥺 ...now that they're grown up and I'm easing into semi retirement, its nice to be back here and chat with old friends about this hobby.
Btw, have you audit these KZ-ZEX ? Are they really electro-static drivers, I still have a very vivid impression listening to a buddy's 30k Magnaplaner electrostatic speakers system from 30 year back.
 
Dec 14, 2021 at 1:38 PM Post #61,180 of 103,118
Might surprise you but I have never heard a single KZ earphone. Never ventured there. They certainly produce a myriad of earphones. Seems to be an earphone factory for KZ. I did once buy a TRN earphone which the group has some ties to KZ and their manufacturing OEM factory is the same. TRN VX was enough to let me know it is not worth my time to explore. Was the single worst sounding earphone I have ever experienced. I know a lot of the folks here that read this thread like thier KZ stuff. This is the active KZ thread you can certainly ask here https://www.head-fi.org/threads/knowledge-zenith-kz-impressions-thread.698148/
 
Dec 14, 2021 at 4:25 PM Post #61,181 of 103,118
Btw, have you audit these KZ-ZEX ? Are they really electro-static drivers
Nothing in common. The usual cheap buzzer is called electrostatic. Marketing.
But many easily heard something special there. It was very funny to watch. Psychoacoustics is an important part of this hobby.
 
Dec 14, 2021 at 4:40 PM Post #61,182 of 103,118
Might surprise you but I have never heard a single KZ earphone. Never ventured there. They certainly produce a myriad of earphones. Seems to be an earphone factory for KZ. I did once buy a TRN earphone which the group has some ties to KZ and their manufacturing OEM factory is the same. TRN VX was enough to let me know it is not worth my time to explore. Was the single worst sounding earphone I have ever experienced. I know a lot of the folks here that read this thread like thier KZ stuff. This is the active KZ thread you can certainly ask here https://www.head-fi.org/threads/knowledge-zenith-kz-impressions-thread.698148/
That makes no sense.

The TRN VX is that bad (I had one and threw it out), but they have no ties to KZ.
That's like saying I won't listen to an Audeze because the Drop Sennheiser HD 8XX was produced in the same building and wasn't to my liking.
 
Dec 14, 2021 at 4:47 PM Post #61,183 of 103,118
Might surprise you but I have never heard a single KZ earphone. Never ventured there. They certainly produce a myriad of earphones. Seems to be an earphone factory for KZ. I did once buy a TRN earphone which the group has some ties to KZ and their manufacturing OEM factory is the same. TRN VX was enough to let me know it is not worth my time to explore. Was the single worst sounding earphone I have ever experienced. I know a lot of the folks here that read this thread like thier KZ stuff. This is the active KZ thread you can certainly ask here https://www.head-fi.org/threads/knowledge-zenith-kz-impressions-thread.698148/
Furthermore, you are truly legendary for "hearing" the cables :)
 
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Dec 14, 2021 at 5:17 PM Post #61,185 of 103,118
That makes no sense.

The TRN VX is that bad (I had one and threw it out), but they have no ties to KZ.
That's like saying I won't listen to an Audeze because the Drop Sennheiser HD 8XX was produced in the same building and wasn't to my liking.
A bit if an industry insider information. Reason why I know they have ties with KZ or had ties with KZ I should say. It was a former worker for KZ that split ties with KZ and made their own brand by the name of TRN. They use the same exact OEM made in the same factory as the KZ earphones.

I suppose it is officially a different brand altogether so your right. It does however seem that drivers used by KZ is very similar to the type of drivers used by TRN and visa versa. If it is the same OEM that is making them it should be the same. SO that is why I associated KZ with TRN. But they could have a different tuning philosophy.
 
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