The concept of sound stage - having it and having it right.
Oct 16, 2010 at 4:28 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 35

mvw2

Headphoneus Supremus
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I recently have been toying around with my IEMs with video.  My new phone came with the new Tron trailer, so I've been playing around with my earphones with this little video.  I don't typically use earphones for movie watching, so there have been a lot of aspects that I have not really looked at critically.  One of these aspects is sound stage, mainly how correct the layout is represented.  For music, this isn't really a concern.  More left-right, more depth, more of anything typically is good as it helps separate and space out the presentation.  However, when toying with video I started realizing how the stage was off.  I'll explain further.
 
In the basic sense, the sound stage consists of a full left earphone, full right earphone, and a mix of volume of both in between that allows the perceived location to pan across the stage space.  Depth is largely controlled via dynamic range.  Very loud information is perceived close while very quiet information is perceived far.  We have a relative sense of close and far when compared to an average noise level of the audio we are listening too.  The greater the dynamic range, the greater the depth.
 
To make a good sound stage we need additional things.  First we need transparency.  We need the earphone to produce audio without it sounding like the audio is coming from the earphone.  If we notice the source, we will be forever drawn to it.  Essentially we want the earphone to disappear from our perception.  Drivers with lower distortion help the driver disappear.  Minimizing driver vibration of the earphone housing helps the driver disappear.  Eliminating any additional resonances or noise sources in the earphone from the driver helps make the earphone disappear.  When done right, all we hear is sound and we have no perception of a driver/earphone creating that sound.
 
Second, we need to present enough detailed information to provide locational cues, size, and spacing.  While much of this comes from simply panning left to right and changing relative volume, a lot of locational cues are also mixed into the audio in the form of small noises, echos, reverberations of the instruments and room.  Much of this information can be presented or lost depending on the earphone's ability to present a high amount of detail as well as present a significant amount of note texture/articulation.  A driver that is too sluggish or muddy might not be capable enough to portray some of the smaller details.  A driver that is to short and clean not may cut a note so short that there is little articulation and a lot of data simply can't be presented in the note time.
 
Third, we need everything to be linear.  We need the panning from left to right even.  Believe it or not, some earphones have very little sense of direction outside of very left, very right, and somewhere in the center.  Sometimes the very left and very right are overly dominant but with a smaller sense of directions in between.  This kind of has to do with the ability for the earphone to scale linearly in volume from quiet to loud, and it may have some to do with linearity of dynamic range.  Speaking of dynamic range, depth is also an area where linearity is important.  Some earphones have a relatively compressed range where quiet is medium in volume and loud is medium loud.  Sometimes notes can be presented overly aggressive and loud can be quite loud.   Sometimes earphones have trouble presenting very quiet information and distance is lost.  The more dynamic range and the more linear the range, the better the sense of depth will be, including both close proximity and great distance.
 
I also want to note that frequency response does play a role in all of this.  Our minds use tonal changes to gauge relative location, example behind or in front.  You can change the frequency response of an earphone and effectively move locational cues of sounds around in the stage space.  While I don't specifically say that an earphone should be ruler flat in response, linearity of this response does aid the mind in evaluating the sound and placing it more correctly.
 
In the end, we want to see all of these aspects put together.  We would prefer to have an earphone that is fast and highly detailed, clean in note but with lengthy attack and decay to allow texture/articulation, and a very capable driver that isn't dynamically constrained.  All at the same time we want the ranges of volume and the dynamic range to be linear in breadth.  It's kind of a hard task in the end to simply do everything right.
 
So back to the movie watching...
 
Well, as I was dinking around with my various earphones I started to realize that some were a bit off.  Now many of the earphones I have do have good sound stages in the sense that you get good space, depth, locational placement, at least in songs with no visual reference.  However, once I tied an image to the sounds, specifically an image that was purposely dimensional like a movie(versus something like a concert), locational perception was off with many of my earphones.  Many ended up tossing the perceived location of the act pretty much off screen.  You may get a good center and a strong left and right, but for something that is halfway left on the screen, the earphone throws the sound to the left edge or in some cases beyond the screen.  I ended up only having a couple earphones that were good about putting the sound and the picture in the same perceived place with both the eyes and the ears.  It was certainly an interesting experience given that I never really looked at sound stage as having to be correct.  A lot of what I prefer has typically be exaggerations of the stage space, wider and deeper than what is realistic.  For some earphones it's not always a matter of being too left or right but also too close or too far away from what the image indicates.  Effectively the earphones that are more spot on are the ones that are more correct in range that offer both good linearity as well as appropriate intensity.  I'm a big fan of having a solid sound stage in earphones.  It just adds so much to the experience.  I have certainly been intrigued by also now evaluating earphones effectively for accuracy of placement.  It's something I just haven't done before, and it's shedding some new light on the products I own.
 
In case you're wondering:
Well synced locational cues
-Ck100
-OK1
-e-Q7
 
Not so well synced (although good sound stage from a musical sense)
-RE-ZERO
-UM3X
-Custom 3
-Triple.Fi 10
 
I found it interesting, especially since I do like the sound stage presentation of pretty much all these.  Each are different, but they all do function well in their own ways.  It is interesting how they do stack up once an image is involved.  I've been a long time fan of the OK1, so that wasn't a big surprise.  The CK100 is new to me but it's growing on me.  These two represent the most balanced and linear of the bunch and end up putting the audio cues and video most in sync.  The RE-ZERO isn't half bad actually, just not as good.  It is interestingly aggressive at louder volumes.  The UM3X was a surprise, awesome sound stage for pure audio, but it ended up being much stronger left and right and the response seemed to change distancing some.  I was expecting the Custom 3 to be stellar as it is incredible for music.  It's simply just a little off from the picture.  The Triple.Fi 10's dynamics aren't as good, a little compressed, so it was as expected, love it for audio though, especially techno.
 
I wish I could toss up more earphones, but I don't have more to try out though.  Feel free to find some movies/trailers, and start listening to some of your earphones.Get an idea of where the earphone places sound relative to the movie.  Is the left-right panning decent?  How about proximity and distance?  Anywho, comment away, add your own experiences.
 
Oct 16, 2010 at 6:00 AM Post #2 of 35
This was a very interesting piece to read.
 
I remember first time watching movie with my ie8, I thought I got a broken pair because I kept hearing little clicking noise in my left bud but turns out it was a character typing off an old style keyboard in the corner and that really surprised me.
 
When I use my macbook to play movies, I, more often than not, use ie8 rather than speakers. I don't have any good headphones and only have a couple of decent gaming headsets. The bass and soundstage really is great for movies. One of my fave movies to play with ie8 is The Dark Knight. When he goes to HK to capture the chinese guy and just as they hook onto the airplane, the background music they play is just awesome.
 
Another trailer I like is Inception trailer. The bass just kicks in and it's so capsulating. I can watch it every day.
 
These are some of my fave movies I've watched with ie8 again:
A Clockwork Orange (wonderful soundtrack)
Heat (the bank robbery scene especially)
Inglorious Basterds
Schindler's List (another wonderful soundtrack)
The Insider
 
Basically I love watching movies with my ie8 but I find that sometimes, the voice can be a little deeper. But this happens only when I watch free streaming TV shows (I watch two and a half men online and sometimes, Alan and Charlie's voice is deeper than playing through speakers) and never noticed it when I watch downloaded movies which I find weird. I don't know if it's the streaming website's fault but ie8 works wonders with movies to my ears.
 
It's interesting to read that you like the CK100 with movies because that's what I'm really interested in for my future iem purchase. I think good bass response is a requirement for watching movies although that might just be me. Only if CK100 weren't so expensive and hard to find, I'd buy one right away.
 
Oct 16, 2010 at 6:18 AM Post #3 of 35
The OK1 in IEM mode might interest you, puts the IE8 to shame in bass response.  As bright as it is as a bud, once you cut out the losses, it's a low frequency beast.  It does benefit from EQing though as the response isn't geared quite right for an IEM.  Plus its high ohm gearing almost necessitates an amp unless you only intend quieter levels.  The OK1 has impressed me for two years against everything else I've ever owned.  The CK100 and the RE252 have been the only IEMs that I've used where I could almost accept letting them go, but neither quite do what the OK1 does.  The OK1 is incredible, but it needs work to have it perform its best.  Not everyone can dedicate an EQ and an amp to it.
 
I will soon have a RE252 again to compare, and I'm getting the chance to demo the new RE262 too.  I'm curious how they visually represent location as it was never something I really critically looked at when I used to own the RE252.
 
Oct 27, 2010 at 11:09 PM Post #4 of 35
This is somewhat off topic but I just got some PK1s and am curious having read some of your posts in different threads about the OK1 if you have heard the PK1s and how its sound stage compares to the PK1?
 
Oct 27, 2010 at 11:23 PM Post #5 of 35
I've never been big on the idea of sound stage within an earphone. It does have its purposes but I'm not a big critic of it since I see sound stage in an earphone as something that is limited by the fact that we have to stick an earphone housing in our ears and that can only do so much. Even the largest sound stage is still quite small and a closed headphone has a much larger stage than them. I find most earphones to have a general left and right but nothing really clear cut in terms of placement. There are exceptions as some earphones I've heard have much better placement but I find earphones as a whole to not have that great sound stage regardless.
 
Oct 28, 2010 at 8:21 AM Post #6 of 35
Let's be humble here. In stereo, loudspeakers try to reproduce sounds captured originating from any point in a 3d space, using nothing but two sources. Left and Right.
 
That should not sound like a simple issue and it isn't. Stereo recordings have an in built error in relying on only 2 reproducing sources. It is not enough and any normal ear have no problem locating the location of two loudspeakers trying to reproduce sounds from a 3d space captured in Stereo. Flat frequency response, distortion free, 100% perfect speakers or not.
 
This has been shown by psychoacoustic scientists, such as Ingvar Ohman.
 
It should however be possible to trick ears by adding slight wiggles on certain specific parts of the frequency response. These would be small enough to remain impossible to detect by the ear in mono, but be possible to detect by two ears in stereo by the fact the speakers would be incredibly hard to locate.
 
Doesn't sound like exact science to me but on the other hand it's a hard problem. 
 
Oct 28, 2010 at 11:14 AM Post #7 of 35
It's sound and where it originates shouldn't matter if what the canal sees is the right signal. It could sound like the best home system. I don't know if that's remotely possible without DSP which could also do more harm than good but I don't think that the souce being in your ears is necessarily an absolute in terms of limitation. I certainly haven't been convinced on scale with anything worn but I'm not ruling it out either.
 
Oct 28, 2010 at 1:46 PM Post #9 of 35
[size=10pt]A headphone (IEM) Engineer stated in another thread (and I'm not quoting directly) that an IEM should not add or remove anything relating to soundstage. Their job is to reproduce the R&L channels accurately. Any perceived soundstage should be in the original recording. Any changes to that are simply anomalies.[/size]
 
[size=10pt]I agree, and as far as I’m concerned, a good IEM should produce headstage only. It’s left and right, and it’s the brain that merges the two (based on balance of particular parts) to produce the effect that the sound is coming from somewhere (and anywhere) between the two.[/size]
 
[size=10pt]In full-sized cans and speakers, the design and shape of your ear (or in the case of speakers… too many variables to discuss here) assist in the perception of depth. But as the sound from an IEM bypasses the pinna and the rest of your ear and head, and is shot straight to your middle ear, it should be just the sound and its inherent spatial effects. Nothing gained or added.[/size]
 
[size=10pt]Cheers[/size]
 
[size=10pt]shane[/size]
 
Oct 28, 2010 at 3:24 PM Post #10 of 35


Quote:
[size=10pt]Any perceived soundstage should be in the original recording. Any changes to that are simply anomalies.[/size]
 

Thanks, Shane.
 
Wow! FINALLY some reality in the definition and use of "soundstage" in this forum.
 
I've been a sound engineer for more than 25 years doing everything from mixing front of house, designing and installing sound systems and recording and mixing albums, and I've always laughed by a$$ off at the way the term "soundstage" has been thrown around here. It's so completely and utterly overused and misused when it comes to iems.
 
I mean seriously, "is the soundstage wider or taller?" or "the soundstage is not as deep as I would like" or "it places the instruments nicely"...what complete and utter horse$crap.
 
The only controls that iem manufacturers have over audio is: frequency response, dynamic range and distortion. That's it. EVERYTHING else is based on the original recording and how that recording is reproduced by the iem's frequency response, dynamic range and distortion. Period. 
 
Even then, "placement" is truly only 2D...left and right. If you think you hear depth, it's really only a function of how much high end has been trimmed or boosted and/or reverb added.
 
Sorry about the rant...but I've been wanting to get that off my chest for quite a while now. Please everyone, go back to listening to some great music.
 
darthsmile.gif

 
Oct 28, 2010 at 3:33 PM Post #11 of 35
Why is it that a few IEM's (such as the IE8's) have been said to have a big headstage (or soundstage, whichever term it is), yet they are perceived to not have the same sonic quality as those rated higher?
 
Oct 28, 2010 at 4:55 PM Post #12 of 35

 
Quote:
I've been a sound engineer for more than 25 years doing everything from mixing front of house, designing and installing sound systems and recording and mixing albums, and I've always laughed by a$$ off at the way the term "soundstage" has been thrown around here. It's so completely and utterly overused and misused when it comes to iems.
 
I mean seriously, "is the soundstage wider or taller?" or "the soundstage is not as deep as I would like" or "it places the instruments nicely"...what complete and utter horse$crap.
 
The only controls that iem manufacturers have over audio is: frequency response, dynamic range and distortion. That's it. EVERYTHING else is based on the original recording and how that recording is reproduced by the iem's frequency response, dynamic range and distortion. Period. 
 
Even then, "placement" is truly only 2D...left and right. If you think you hear depth, it's really only a function of how much high end has been trimmed or boosted and/or reverb added.
 
Sorry about the rant...but I've been wanting to get that off my chest for quite a while now. Please everyone, go back to listening to some great music.
 
darthsmile.gif


Well, admittedly I'm no sound engineer, but I'm hearing significant differences in spatial presentation between my IEMs with the same recording and source. Which in my book leaves only the IEMs themselves as possible cause. That's why I call it their soundstage, some of which I perceive as more realistic than others. You can call that personal preference and I won't disagree, but it certainly isn't horse$crap.
 
@mvw2: thanks for your interesting and informative writeup!
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Oct 28, 2010 at 4:57 PM Post #13 of 35


Quote:
Why is it that a few IEM's (such as the IE8's) have been said to have a big headstage (or soundstage, whichever term it is), yet they are perceived to not have the same sonic quality as those rated higher?


Anomalies, psychoacoustics or a simple misunderstanding, maybe? 
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ksc75smile.gif


 
 
Oct 28, 2010 at 5:09 PM Post #14 of 35


Quote:
Well, admittedly I'm no sound engineer, but I'm hearing significant differences in spatial presentation between my IEMs with the same recording and source. Which in my book leaves only the IEMs themselves as possible cause. That's why I call it their soundstage, some of which I perceive as more realistic than others. You can call that personal preference and I won't disagree, but it certainly isn't horse$crap.
 
@mvw2: thanks for your interesting and informative writeup!
smily_headphones1.gif


James444.
The point I was making (not speaking for pizzafilms) is not that these are always psychoacoustics, but that when they are actually perceived, as they will be, they are not how the sound was recorded. They are anomalies.
 
There is no value judgement here, it's just that these effects are introduced by the IEM. They may or may not be enjoyed by the listener, but they are all added to the sound by the IEM, and therefore, like any colouration, untrue to the original.
 
You are certainly correct stating that some will introduce this more than others.
 
shane
 
 
Oct 28, 2010 at 6:21 PM Post #15 of 35
Binaural recording are made to create natural space from a headphone type listening environment. The sound field is not limited to the space between the transducers if done correctly. The same spacial cues we perceive in real space can be reproduced to give the same effect in headphones or IEMs. It's not a matter of if but how and how well. By the same token, IEMs can have different perspectives on normal recordings without it being an anomoly. It's simple a matter of how your brain interprets the existing cues. By the theory some are putting forward, any studio recording should not have imaging and depth as all was close mic-ed but we know that's not the case sonically once mixed and reverbed etc.
 

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