[gregorio]

Did you mean DACs of nowadays should all sound more or less similar regardless it is a $100 or $1000 one?

As a general rule “yes”. Audio Science Review can be a handy resource because they’ve objectively measured numerous DACs, although the subjective parts of the reviews should be taken with a pinch of salt IMHO. The measurements show a wide variation in performance between DACs but most importantly, these differences (even with the worst performing DACs) are virtually always below audibility or way below audibility. There are a few very rare exceptions however, some NOS or so called “tube” DACs introduce distortions which are in the range of audibility.

Just buy the cheapest DAC you can find ?

Nope! IMHO that should be: Buy the cheapest DAC you can find with the features/functionality and build quality you desire. This is just for audio performance however, most consumers also value other attributes, such as visual appearance, brand name, etc., which is absolutely fine of course but makes no difference to audio performance (except for those vary rare exceptions mentioned above which degrade performance).

Why then do some studios use DACs from makers like Benchmark ?

What studios and what do they use a Benchmark DAC for?

Virtually no studios use standalone DACs. For 25 years or so, since DAW use became common, studios have used external units which are integrated ADCs/DACs, typically 16 I/O (ins and outs) and typically banks of these ADCs/DACs in bigger studios to achieve 32, 64 or more simultaneous input channels. For the last decade or so, the trend has been towards “modular ADCs/DACs”. These are a “base unit” providing a complex software controlled routing matrix but little or no conversion. However, these base units typically contain 8 “card slots”, in which optional “cards” can be fitted. A single card will provide 8 channels of AD (with or without software controlled mic pre amps) or 8 channels of DA or both and other cards can provide multiple MADI, DANTE (or other format) I/Os. The Avid MTRX (currently MTRX II) is a very common example, although Prism, Antelope, DAD, Apogee and others all produce similar modular units. Having said this, a lot of studios are still using old (10+ years) ADCs/DACs because there’s no sonic benefit to upgrading. They only get the newer modular ones if the old ones become unserviceable or they need the added functionality of the complex routing matrixes (for Dolby Atmos for example).

Two channel ADCs/DACs (or just DACs) are only likely to be found in “bedroom” setups, which probably wouldn’t even qualify as a “project studio” and I wouldn’t think a relatively expensive DAC would be considered in such cases. It is possible *some* (real) studios use a Benchmark DAC for some secondary/ancillary task, although I can’t think what that might be off the top of my head, maybe a digital feed to another room with stereo speaker/monitors?

It’s not uncommon for audiophile companies to market their products as “professional”, “reference” or “used by studios” but almost always this is either just a complete bald faced lie or at least a misrepresentation. Maybe they gave some units to a few studios for marketing, maybe they are actually used in some vary rare cases for some ancillary task or maybe a gullible audiophile or two setup a home/project studio and that’s the justification.

Having said that, Benchmark is an extremely rare exception in the audiophile world. Much of what they state/claim is actually accurate and indeed, they quite often publish articles debunking audiophile myths. John Siau is one of only two or so (that I’m aware of) audiophile manufacturer representatives who are generally trustworthy sources of information, although he’s not beyond slightly exaggerating the facts on occasion (though typically not unacceptably so).

G

 

[The Jester]

I’m not saying studios use 2 channel DAC’s in any part of the recording chain, but surely most producing popular commercial music releases have some form of checking the final product on one or more “typical” systems ….
You seem to have a bit of a “mercenary” viewpoint on manufacturers and indeed if they don’t make a profit they don’t survive, but having said that are all those in that industry any different to other professions ?
Does every digital engineer, studio engineer, musician, doctor, golfer, tennis player etc, etc, take up their chosen career path based solely on remuneration prospects ?

 

[bigshot]

The studio I always recorded at had the mixing board, the output of the computer, and a Blu-ray player. They don’t have standalone consumer DACs to my knowledge.

You check for different systems with different speakers. Since DACs are audibly transparent, what’s the point to checking different DACs?

 

[gregorio]

I’m not saying studios use 2 channel DAC’s in any part of the recording chain, but surely most producing popular commercial music releases have some form of checking the final product on one or more “typical” systems ….

What typical system, an android phone streaming to a Bluetooth speaker? Maybe we should build an average bedroom or sitting room? Except there’s no such thing, relatively small differences in room dimensions, building materials and speaker placement make big differences in the sound arriving at the listening position. While one typical consumer listening environment might have say a 10dB boost at 80Hz and a 10dB loss at 130Hz (amongst other acoustic problems) another typical room/environment might be the exact opposite. Maybe we should check on an audiophile system? Although pretty much by definition, an audiophile system is not a “typical” system. It’s not uncommon for studios to have a small pair of particularly crappy “reference” speakers, to check a mix with reference to “as bad as it’s likely to get”, to check with headphones and famously, producers will sometimes/often listen to a mix on their car stereo on their way to/from the studio. These of course all represent a relatively massive sonic difference to the studio reproduction system, we’re not going to waste our time checking mixes on equipment that makes no audible difference at all, such as different DACs, amps, audiophile cables, decrapifiers, etc.

You seem to have a bit of a “mercenary” viewpoint on manufacturers and indeed if they don’t make a profit they don’t survive, but having said that are all those in that industry any different to other professions ?

Yes, although not all other professions of course. But using your examples: A musician, tennis or golf player who lies about their abilities will get found out within minutes when they start playing/competing. Some doctors make a living selling “quack” ideas and remedies but the vast majority would get sanctioned/“struck off” of course. Studio engineers will also get found out in short order.

The difference with the professions you listed is obvious! In many segments of the audiophile world manufacturers/retailers must lie in order to compete and survive. With no or almost no exceptions they must ALL (falsely) state or at least strongly imply there’s an audible improvement over much cheaper alternatives. Audiophile cables, DACs, amps, purifiers and a whole range of other audiophile product segments. They are “mercenaries” and obviously, if you don’t have a “mercenary” viewpoint of mercenaries then you’re gullible, deluded or both!

G

 

[Benesyed]

Yep. The difference is primarily features and build quality, not sound quality.

I agree with this. the only issue I've found on dacs in the modern era is not the dac but the device memory or other hardware related issues causing audible stuttering.

USB C out on the pixel 7, for example, is absolute trash. if I try to play local files and browse the web at the same time the files will stutter. It only will work properly if I have battery saver off and the music streaming app open and nothing else going on.

 

[bigshot]

Yeah, that sounds like a throughput problem, not a problem with the DAC itself.

Sometimes it can be a weird software incompatibility too. Recently, I was having problems streaming video. Every two seconds or so, there would be a glitch as the stream disconnected and reconnected. For a month, I tried everything to solve the problem. I eventually discovered that my adblocker was interfering with streaming. If I turned it on, glitch every couple of seconds. If I turned it off, clear sailing.

 

[The Jester]

What typical system, an android phone streaming to a Bluetooth speaker? Maybe we should build an average bedroom or sitting room? Except there’s no such thing, relatively small differences in room dimensions, building materials and speaker placement make big differences in the sound arriving at the listening position. While one typical consumer listening environment might have say a 10dB boost at 80Hz and a 10dB loss at 130Hz (amongst other acoustic problems) another typical room/environment might be the exact opposite. Maybe we should check on an audiophile system? Although pretty much by definition, an audiophile system is not a “typical” system. It’s not uncommon for studios to have a small pair of particularly crappy “reference” speakers, to check a mix with reference to “as bad as it’s likely to get”, to check with headphones and famously, producers will sometimes/often listen to a mix on their car stereo on their way to/from the studio. These of course all represent a relatively massive sonic difference to the studio reproduction system, we’re not going to waste our time checking mixes on equipment that makes no audible difference at all, such as different DACs, amps, audiophile cables, decrapifiers, etc.

Yes, although not all other professions of course. But using your examples: A musician, tennis or golf player who lies about their abilities will get found out within minutes when they start playing/competing. Some doctors make a living selling “quack” ideas and remedies but the vast majority would get sanctioned/“struck off” of course. Studio engineers will also get found out in short order.

The difference with the professions you listed is obvious! In many segments of the audiophile world manufacturers/retailers must lie in order to compete and survive. With no or almost no exceptions they must ALL (falsely) state or at least strongly imply there’s an audible improvement over much cheaper alternatives. Audiophile cables, DACs, amps, purifiers and a whole range of other audiophile product segments. They are “mercenaries” and obviously, if you don’t have a “mercenary” viewpoint of mercenaries then you’re gullible, deluded or both!

G

Totally the wrong end of the stick,
Professions mentioned are usually entered into from desire or passion not the potential earnings, ego or social status..
Have you never “gone the extra mile” with something out of desire or to keep to your own personal standards even if not required ?

 

[gregorio]

Totally the wrong end of the stick,
Professions mentioned are usually entered into from desire or passion not the potential earnings, ego or social status..

I don’t know what other “end of the stick” there is? Some of the professions you mentioned are not just entered into from desire or passion, there are countless musicians and sports people with a great deal of desire and passion who cannot enter the profession because they simply don’t have the skill. Auditions and/or competitions constantly separate the wheat from the chaff at every stage of progression at ever higher levels. It will usually take a decade or more of hard work/study from childhood and at the end of it maybe 1 in a 1,000 (or fewer) will make it into the profession. Although not to the same degree, the same is broadly true of studio engineers. In my country there were many thousands of music/sound engineering students in higher education every year but only around 100-150 vacancies per year.

Having said this, there are some segments of the music industry that are not a meritocracy. Professional musicians in the pop segment often have relatively little skill/ability. You’ve surely heard of “manufactured bands” where some or all of the members are primarily employed for their marketability rather than any musical talent, this has even occurred occasionally in the classical world.

Have you never “gone the extra mile” with something out of desire or to keep to your own personal standards even if not required ?

I was originally a formally trained and then a professional orchestral musician. “Going the extra mile” was the absolute bare minimum requirement to even stand a tiny chance of becoming a professional and that’s been a way of life for me ever since. Audiophile products are typically made by automated machines and factory line workers in say China, do they routinely “go the extra mile”? I’ve no doubt some small boutique audiophile manufacturers put in considerable effort but how many extra miles do they go beyond what many small businesses have to do to survive? And, survival/prosperity for nearly all audiophile manufacturers comes down to pushing marketing BS.

I don’t see the correlation you seem to be drawing at all.

G

 

[The Jester]

I don’t know what other “end of the stick” there is? Some of the professions you mentioned are not just entered into from desire or passion, there are countless musicians and sports people with a great deal of desire and passion who cannot enter the profession because they simply don’t have the skill. Auditions and/or competitions constantly separate the wheat from the chaff at every stage of progression at ever higher levels. It will usually take a decade or more of hard work/study from childhood and at the end of it maybe 1 in a 1,000 (or fewer) will make it into the profession. Although not to the same degree, the same is broadly true of studio engineers. In my country there were many thousands of music/sound engineering students in higher education every year but only around 100-150 vacancies per year.

Having said this, there are some segments of the music industry that are not a meritocracy. Professional musicians in the pop segment often have relatively little skill/ability. You’ve surely heard of “manufactured bands” where some or all of the members are primarily employed for their marketability rather than any musical talent, this has even occurred occasionally in the classical world.

I was originally a formally trained and then a professional orchestral musician. “Going the extra mile” was the absolute bare minimum requirement to even stand a tiny chance of becoming a professional and that’s been a way of life for me ever since. Audiophile products are typically made by automated machines and factory line workers in say China, do they routinely “go the extra mile”? I’ve no doubt some small boutique audiophile manufacturers put in considerable effort but how many extra miles do they go beyond what many small businesses have to do to survive? And, survival/prosperity for nearly all audiophile manufacturers comes down to pushing marketing BS.

I don’t see the correlation you seem to be drawing at all.

G

If it’s not a too personal question,
Was your real passion for playing music or more the creative side of recording it ?

 

[gregorio]

Was your real passion for playing music or more the creative side of recording it ?

When I was much younger, it was originally for performing music and I had no knowledge or even much thought about recording/producing it. That starting changing just over 30 years ago, when the reality of being a professional musician started eroding the passion and I was exposed more to recording/production side.

G

 

[The Jester]

When I was much younger, it was originally for performing music and I had no knowledge or even much thought about recording/producing it. That starting changing just over 30 years ago, when the reality of being a professional musician started eroding the passion and I was exposed more to recording/production side.

G

Understandable,
Thanks for the insight ….

 

[Benesyed]

As a doctor I can tell you that there are doctors who get into significant legal trouble for putting financial interests ahead of medical interests of the patient. It stands to reason that if someone is willing to let money take precedence over another human beings well-being in addition to putting their own livelihood at stake, then you can imagine that the temptation in other professions is even more overwhelming since the risks to oneself and others is much lower.

 

[Peti]

Why do I feel that Ethan Winer has been contributing to this thread under the pseudonym "gregorio"?

 

[mbphotox]

So... some people claim that the DAC in the WiiM Pro is so bad that one could hear how bad it is..
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../wiim-pro-review-measurements-streamer.42300/

do these measurements indicate that one should hear the issues?

From what I understand, a S/N of -80 dB would be audible at SPL around 110-120dB, right? (then the noise floor would be 30 (or 40, respectively) dB loud?


I haven't tested it myself, was too lazy to experiment with analog output since the DAC in my Pioneer AV-Receiver was praised so highly 10 years ago

 

[gregorio]

do these measurements indicate that one should hear the issues?

It’s extremely unlikely you would. In other words, the measurements indicate that in some extreme scenarios some issues might be borderline audible.

From what I understand, a S/N of -80 dB would be audible at SPL around 110-120dB, right? (then the noise floor would be 30 (or 40, respectively) dB loud?

If your peak level were 110dB then the noise floor would be around 30dB. Whether that 30dB noise floor would be audible would depend on the noise floor of your environment. If the noise floor of your environment is say 40dB then “no”, you won’t hear it but if it is around or below 30dB, then “possibly”. On the other hand, 110dB is excessively loud, it will cause a “temporary threshold shift” (and permanent hearing damage if you do it regularly!), so unless there’s a good amount of time between such high levels and the 30dB noise floor, to allow the threshold shift to revert, you won’t be able to hear it.

HPs will of course reduce your environmental noise floor by around 10dB (or more in the case of well sealed IEMs), so potentially a peak level of say 100dB could result in a 20dB noise floor which might be audible (given a reverted hearing threshold shift) but with HPs, a 100dB peak level is an unsafe listening level.

G