[Steve Eddy]

[COLOR=0000CD]kerfuffle[/COLOR],,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I see you found the Easter egg I hid just for you.

se

 

[dazzerfong]

I'm sorry. I didn't know that rationality was so frowned upon here. I won't let it happen again.
No, we weren't talking about audio. We were talking about who should be held responsible for bedlam. Nor did my analogy have anything inherently to do with politics or crime.
I can only see it "going too far" to those who are incapable of distinguishing logical analogy from moral equivalency.

I guess I'm just giving some people too much credit.

I didn't go to fancy Ivy League colleges or anything. I dropped out of school after 9th grade and had typical grades of Cs, Ds and Fs. But Christ, I know the difference between logical analogy and moral equivalency. And even for those who may have been a bit confused, I'd like to think that once I had explained that I was making a logical analogy, not a moral equivalency, they would say "Oh, ok. I see what you're saying."
I see no reason at all for why it should be controversial, nor any more complex than the house owner analogy you give below. And still, no one has been able to explain why. Not even you. All I get is "that's going to far."
Sure, that could work as well. Though it is no better or worse than the analogy that I used. And again, I fail to see why my analogy should be at all controversial, except to those who think a logical analogy is the same as moral equivalency. And if so, I think those people should take a moment to learn the difference (if anything this forum is about learning) instead of getting themselves all in a thither and calling for the smelling salts.

se

Alright, agree to disagree then. I'll tell you that I'd you phrased it better rather than act all high and mighty, this could've been avoided. But I guess 30+ years on forums makes you the expert, right?

Oh, and way to take a shot at college. Not even related at all. No one cares (or knows) about your education history.

 

[castleofargh]

this has taken a sad turn, almost as sad as what I went through on the pono thread(but you're just not there yet). what's done is done, and no kitten was hurt in the making of this thread. so no drama (I would of course have requested a ban if a kitten had been murdered).

 

[StanD]

Can everyone hit the reset button and drop all of the animosity and be friendly. Let's back to the business this thread was originally intended or something close to it. Please. 

 

[StanD]

How about JDD (Just Detectable Distortion). Can humans detect better than 0.1% THD? Or what is it that we can detect? What about the spectra of the THD?

 

[Steve Eddy]

Alright, agree to disagree then.

If you say so.

I'll tell you that I'd you phrased it better rather than act all high and mighty, this could've been avoided.

I still see nothing that should have been avoided on my part. I keep being told that my analogy was offensively tasteless. And I keep asking why. What exactly makes it offensively tasteless? And so far, NOT ONE PERSON HAS GIVEN ONE SCINTILLA OF AN EXPLANATION. Not so much as a paragraph or even a single sentence. NOTHING.

So tell me, why should I care about something that no one can even explain?

Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn't there.
He wasn't there again today,
I wish, I wish he'd go away...

—Hughes Mearns

se

 

[Steve Eddy]

How about JDD (Just Detectable Distortion). Can humans detect better than 0.1% THD? Or what is it that we can detect? What about the spectra of the THD?

Listening to music or pure tones? Most of the thresholds are established using pure tones. Whole different ballgame when it comes to listening to music.

se

 

[StanD]

Listening to music or pure tones? Most of the thresholds are established using pure tones. Whole different ballgame when it comes to listening to music.

se

Lets consider both scenarios.

 

[Steve Eddy]

[VIDEO][/VIDEO]

Lets consider both scenarios.

Don't think you're going to find much out there using music. And of course much will depend on the particular music.

But since we seem to be able to produce audibly transparent electronics already, even in modestly priced consumer gear, I'm not sure how useful the answers would be. Unless maybe you wanted to design something unusual which would have distortion up near the JND.

Would be great if jj was a user here. He'd probably have all the answers you want.

se

 

[jcx]

low order harmonics are heavily masked % 2nd, 3rd aren't detected with pure tone due to upwards frequency masking, especially when the fundamental's SPL exceeds ~ 80 dB
 
in music many instruments will already have natural harmonics making up their timbre - small additions and subtractions from low order nonlinearity generating harmonics of the fundamental again is hard to detect
 
the trick for hearing small amounts of low order distortion is to use 2 tone test signals and listen for Intermodulation difference frequency - depending on frequencies chosen the IMD difference tone can be lower in frequency than both test tones and easier to hear since downward frequency masking has a steeper slope at moderate to high SPL than the upward masking curve
 
the 2 tone IMD test is supposed to permit detection of as low as -80 dB IMD product in some circumstances
 
but there is a challenge to AB/X a Sousa March added at -60 dB to a Brahms Lullaby - so real music can have very strong masking

 

[davidsh]

Has anything notable happened over the last 4 days? I gave up at page 257...

 

[Ruben123]

At what point doesn't the crosstalk not matter any more?
-90 db, -120db...?

 

[Vartan]

At what point doesn't the crosstalk not matter any more?
-90 db, -120db...?

- 76 db

 

[analogsurviver]

At what point doesn't the crosstalk not matter any more?
-90 db, -120db...?

Around - 60 dB.
 
Which is not to say that improving an amplifier from around 90 dB to below residual noise is not audible - it is; but it will only be appreciated over long listening sessions.
And even that not directly - unless you test with two of the same type amps, one left at 90 dB or so, other "all the way". It will be the most noticeable when you go from the better back to the worse ... - AFTER you have familiarized yourself with the better one.
 
That is why , sometimes, manufacturers offer both stereo amps in one box - or mono blocks, which share nothing but the power line. At a cost - but it is hard to disagree - once heard the same circuit powered in stereo (common supply) or mono block version. Yet both will usually exceed  90 dB separation no matter what - with mono blocks, it should be unmeasurable and impossible to improve upon further.

 

[stv014]

At what point doesn't the crosstalk not matter any more?
-90 db, -120db...?

 
There is a test with simulated crosstalk in this old thread. No ABX results have been posted, though, either because of the lack of interest, or the difference being much more difficult to detect than people expected.
 
In any case, if you view for example -40 dB crosstalk as 1% narrower sound stage, it is hardly something to be particularly worried about. That figure (and usually much better) can easily be achieved by any decent electronics for typical home listening with headphones or speakers, as long as analog sources like tape, vinyl, or FM radio are not involved.