[googleborg]

the DC offset off my current pet amp starts off at 20mv and falls to about 2mv (the 10k trimpots are 'meh', getting some new bourns multiturn ones) after 10 minutes...i think it's as close to burn in i've seen...i think it's traditionally called 'warming up' though, and it happens every turn on, so it's not actually burn in is it... i sleep now (-_-)

 

[Prog Rock Man]

This thread was never about burn in.There are loads of other threads about that. After 317 posts on 22 pages all we get from the myth believers is anything but tackle the actual issue, when it comes to cables there is a complete failure to actually hear* a difference and as for other audio products the differences are so small that sometimes they fail to hear* a difference as well.
 
* By hear a difference I mean being able to identify a difference by sound alone with no other senses involved.
 

 

[3X0]

Quote:

I'm warning people against the bad information that copiously lards this thread -- for instance, the claim that breaking in your amp does not result in better sound. If I had listened to the "science" being bandied about here, I would have packed my amp up and returned it to the store. Luckily, I let my amp burn in and was rewarded with wonderful sound. My amp did require a break-in period. It sounds much better now than out of the box.

Your belief is irrational since it is not grounded on any evidence. The contrary opinion, the one which observes the very "sciences" you seem to be against, actually holds weight based on proof.
 
I think the marketing, audiophile voodoo, and all the nonsense perpetuated by stagnating publications like Stereophile have gotten to your head..

 

[Heidegger]

If you stopped theorizing and actually purchased more audio equipment you would know better. The engineer who designed the Black Cube Linear recommends you break it in. The person who actually designed the machine should know.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

If you stopped theorizing and actually purchased more audio equipment you would know better. The engineer who designed the Black Cube Linear recommends you break it in. The person who actually designed the machine should know.

 
Pesumably Norbert can provide suiable before and after measurements and is in nooooo way pandering to audiophile dogma

 
My Wife used to be an EE , the sort where you go to University and get a degree and I asked her about the notion that burn-in could improve the sound of a solid state amp, she remarked that people believe a lot of strange things and doubted that you would find that assertion in any reputable text book.

 

 

[Heidegger]

Nick, go out and buy a brand new BCL then you'll hear the phenomenon for yourself. But I forget -- to you there is no such thing as hearing for yourself; there is only number crunching.
 
I would not be keeping this amp if its sound had not improved dramatically.

 

[Heidegger]

Quote:

Your belief is irrational since it is not grounded on any evidence. The contrary opinion, the one which observes the very "sciences" you seem to be against, actually holds weight based on proof.

I'm not against science, only against theories that are totally divorced from reality. The history of science is studded with emendations, corrections, alterations, and reassessments. New things are learned, theories revised, predictions updated, things once thought scientifically impossible were later scientifically confirmed, old scientific beliefs have been replaced by new ones. Those who rely exclusively on the way something "should" be (I "shouldn't" be able to hear a difference before and after burn-in) and don't even take the time to see and hear something for themselves can deny the obvious only to themselves.

 

[nick_charles]

 
Quote:

Nick, go out and buy a brand new BCL then you'll hear the phenomenon for yourself. But I forget -- to you there is no such thing as hearing for yourself; there is only number crunching.
 
I would not be keeping this amp if its sound had not improved dramatically.

I do a substantial amount of listening for myself, I use a switch box, ABX software and multiple sources so I can test things like codecs, cables, digital connection types, line-out vs headphone out, cd players and so on, that said only the level matched blind tests make any sense, even rapid switching sighted tests are flawed. I have no need of another home headphone amp.

 

[Shike]

Quote:

I'm not against science, only against theories that are totally divorced from reality . . . .

Err, let's get this straight.  Have you seen audiophilia tweaks?:
 
Cables
Burn-In
CD Treatments (a marker along the edge)
Wood blocks that supposedly bring data back to MP3s
A clock with a felt dot on it.
A pile of rocks on top of an amp
 
Don't throw rocks when your house is made of glass.  Audiophilia has been built up various "theories" (as if we could even call them that) that are not only divorces from reality but completely asinine.  Furthermore, the fact that scientific theories are always trying to be disproved means they are held to a higher standard of scrutiny.  Almost everything you touch in life is a byproduct of science -- even your audio setup.
 
Furthermore, us doing the DBT is seen as conflict of interest.  We believe there is going to be a null result.  Therefore, if we take the DBT and no findings are found you can make the accusation that we did it on purpose or suffer from "tin ears" (this has happened in the past to me).

 

[Heidegger]

Quote:

 
Furthermore, us doing the DBT is seen as conflict of interest.  We believe there is going to be a null result.  Therefore, if we take the DBT and no findings are found you can make the accusation that we did it on purpose or suffer from "tin ears" (this has happened in the past to me).

Or that something was wrong with your experiment.

 

[Heidegger]

Quote:

My Wife used to be an EE , the sort where you go to University and get a degree and I asked her about the notion that burn-in could improve the sound of a solid state amp, she remarked that people believe a lot of strange things and doubted that you would find that assertion in any reputable text book.

 

Let me admit that your wife *may* be correct. I might have made a mistake. I was just experimenting with the gain switch on the bottom of the amp and noticed that at 0dB and 10dB the amp becomes slow-sounding, diffuse, and unengaging to me. When I set it at 18dB and 20dB it picks up speed and focus. I find that, for my HD650 headphones, 18dB is what works best. The difference I heard *may* very well have been due to the fact that I reset the gain switch several times. Although I'm not yet ready to totally rule out break-in, I at least see how it could have been something else.
 

 

[Shike]

Quote:

Quote:

 
Furthermore, us doing the DBT is seen as conflict of interest.  We believe there is going to be a null result.  Therefore, if we take the DBT and no findings are found you can make the accusation that we did it on purpose or suffer from "tin ears" (this has happened in the past to me).

Or that something was wrong with your experiment.

Bing-bong, does this mean you finally understand why we won't do a DBT for a particular piece of gear because one person claims it?  Plenty of us have done various DBTs and found nothing (especially Nick).  It doesn't make sense to test every individual claim unfortunately, especially when we have the belief there will be a null

 

[khaos974]

Quote:

Let me admit that your wife *may* be correct. I might have made a mistake. I was just experimenting with the gain switch on the bottom of the amp and noticed that at 0dB and 10dB the amp becomes slow-sounding, diffuse, and unengaging to me. When I set it at 18dB and 20dB it picks up speed and focus. I find that, for my HD650 headphones, 18dB is what works best. The difference I heard *may* very well have been due to the fact that I reset the gain switch several times. Although I'm not yet ready to totally rule out break-in, I at least see how it could have been something else.

 
Or it could be a well known phenomenon called equal loudness contour.
 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

Nick, go out and buy a brand new BCL then you'll hear the phenomenon for yourself. But I forget -- to you there is no such thing as hearing for yourself; there is only number crunching.
 
I would not be keeping this amp if its sound had not improved dramatically.

No one is doubting that you have heard an improvement in the sound of your amp. The question is, was that down to the amp or you? We say it was down to you.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

 Let me admit that your wife *may* be correct. I might have made a mistake. I was just experimenting with the gain switch on the bottom of the amp and noticed that at 0dB and 10dB the amp becomes slow-sounding, diffuse, and unengaging to me. When I set it at 18dB and 20dB it picks up speed and focus. I find that, for my HD650 headphones, 18dB is what works best. The difference I heard *may* very well have been due to the fact that I reset the gain switch several times. Although I'm not yet ready to totally rule out break-in, I at least see how it could have been something else.
 

 
When you compare 2 equivalent and competently designed solid state components (leaving aside the special case of components where the transfer response has been tweaked) the single most likely cause of perceived difference is level difference. I have 3 (broadly similar) CD players, the loudest is 0.7db louder than the quietest, not a lot in absolute terms but enough so I can easily (20/20) dbt them apart. However, when I adjust the levels to be within about 0.1 I can no longer tell them apart. Most of the time slightly louder is perceived as better until it gets too loud of course. So when we listen casually it is easy to mistake a simple level difference for something more fundamental. That is why for serious tests level matching is important and why audio sales staff can sometimes convince you to buy the more expensive item by upping the volume