T+A HiFi - DAC 200 - Official Discussion Thread
Aug 12, 2023 at 3:14 PM Post #106 of 497
What do you feed the Wadia with? (streamer / PC / other...)
Cheers!
A ridiculous 4 chassis "franken-source" PC I built after reverse-engineering a 30K Taiko Extreme server. I use a Mutec MC3+ (fed by a REF10 SE120 master clock) to convert between AES on the Wadia and USB on the server and re-clock it all into gorgeousness.
 
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Aug 12, 2023 at 3:30 PM Post #107 of 497
A ridiculous 4 chassis "franken-source" PC I built after reverse-engineering a 30K Taiko Extreme server. I use a Mutec MC3+ (fed by a REF10 SE120 master clock) to convert between AES on the Wadia and USB on the server.
Oh... yeah!! :sunglasses:
 
Aug 12, 2023 at 5:55 PM Post #108 of 497
Vs the Dave
  • The Dave is ever-so-slightly more technically proficient in most categories, though I still prefer the sound of the T+A. Full disclosure, I never cared much for the stock Dave at all, but it is easy to see why others do. It is very exciting, engaging, and technically proficient (I must also say that adding the ARC6 DC4 upgrade to the Dave launches performance into the stratosphere and makes it very tough to beat at any price).
  • Vs the Tambaqui
    • The Tambaqui is slightly better than the T+A and on par with the Dave as far as technical performance is concerned. The Tambaqui still has the best "algorithmically manufactured naturalness and tone" I've heard at this price point and I prefer it over both the Dave and the T+A.
Just picking up on your comparisons - would you prefer a Dave/ARC6 DC4 over a Tambaqui? Would this be with or without m-scaler? If the ARC DC4 elevates the Dave - what issues does it address - tonality/naturalness?
 
Aug 12, 2023 at 6:50 PM Post #109 of 497
Just picking up on your comparisons - would you prefer a Dave/ARC6 DC4 over a Tambaqui? Would this be with or without m-scaler? If the ARC DC4 elevates the Dave - what issues does it address - tonality/naturalness?
I would take the upgraded Dave every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Not because I necessarily prefer the naturalness and tonality of the upgraded Dave over the Tambaqui (literally the only thing the Tambaqui does better). It is because the upgraded Dave flat out destroys the Tambaqui, along with pretty much everything else close to it, in raw performance. Staging, resolution, detail, note weight, texture, liquidity, refinement, etc...it's all there.

The ARC6 DC4 transforms the Dave into probably a 30-40k+ DAC. It becomes a completely different DAC and a shadow of it's former self (in the best way possible). It is astonishing what adding really good power does to that thing (and pretty much every other audio component for that matter). I heard it without the M-Scaler, which I would no longer recommend.

The upgrade transforms the tonality into something much less "sparkly Hi-Fi" and more "still Hi-Fi-ish, but HOLY FU($&NG $H1T." Definitely more natural, though not quite on the same level as a great R2R DAC, but far...FAR more musical than stock. It sucks you in, keeps your jaw open, and just keeps wowing you. The only similar (non-R2R, "Hi-Fi") DAC I've heard that I like more is a full dCS Vivaldi stack. But remember that over say, 20-30k, it gets harder and harder to find "better" performance and usually just ends up being "different."
 
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Aug 12, 2023 at 7:48 PM Post #111 of 497
nice round! as a lover of R2R, have you had the chance to listen to a MSB dac in a familiar setup?
Yes!!! The MSB Select is the best R2R (and best overall DAC for my preferences) I have heard - bar none - period. Rumor has it the Wadax Atlantis is even better, but I would rather pretend it doesn't exist...just like the MSB. Unfortunately, I never got to try any models below the flagship Select.

Long story, but the short version is I made nice-nice with a couple of dealers that let me haul all of my personal gear into their studios and demo whatever I wanted. I spent so many nights and weekends hauling my gear back and forth to figure out what I actually liked. But no matter what I do or what I try, I can't get the MSB Select out of my head. It haunts me lol.
 
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Aug 12, 2023 at 8:59 PM Post #112 of 497
well, it was in show conditions, but there were some 3 roons with wadax gear in Munich this May, and 4 or more with msb (most used the reference) and I didnt fell for any of the rooms with the Wadax. actually a couple of these roons sounded simply bad to me. sure, there were pront (excuses?) chit chats about those system needing more breaking in. it must sound out of this world good, right? that's the only conclusion by reading others reviews..

to me the wadax was simply not attractive visually or sonically, of course if one ever is to buy a brand new ultra hi end dac, it would be advisable to listen to it.

the MSB (and vivaldi apex) Dacs consistenly provided very natural, analogue experiences in Munich, to my novice ears.
 
Aug 12, 2023 at 9:23 PM Post #113 of 497
well, it was in show conditions, but there were some 3 roons with wadax gear in Munich this May, and 4 or more with msb (most used the reference) and I didnt fell for any of the rooms with the Wadax. actually a couple of these roons sounded simply bad to me. sure, there were pront (excuses?) chit chats about those system needing more breaking in. it must sound out of this world good, right? that's the only conclusion by reading others reviews..

to me the wadax was simply not attractive visually or sonically, of course if one ever is to buy a brand new ultra hi end dac, it would be advisable to listen to it.
Wow...thanks for the insight and for sharing your experience. Quite surprising to hear the Wadias folks screwed up their rooms that badly. Not a good look when you are trying to sell a 150k+ DAC.
the MSB (and vivaldi apex) Dacs consistenly provided very natural, analogue experiences in Munich, to my novice ears.
I couldn't agree more. The MSB Select blew me away. It definitely exceeded the performance capabilities of my personal system. I heard it on the dealer's system as well, but I often wonder if I have truly heard the best it can do.

I knew nothing of the dCS Apex until you mentioned it. Now I'm curious... How would you compare it to the MSB?
 
Aug 12, 2023 at 10:51 PM Post #114 of 497
Thanks!

Both. The T+A is the superior technical performer for DSD, to my ears at least. PCM is much closer.

I don't want to overstep the question, but comparing these two DACs is akin comparing apples to oranges. They are both fruits and that's where many of the similarities end. The right question to ask is which tone and presentation you want:
  • 75% fake, but really excellent fake. Exciting, big staging, super engaging vocals, etc. It's basically a Dave with (very) slightly worse technical performance, but much better tonality. Plays some cool tricks with presentation. Oddly enough, this DAC reminds me of the staging on the Hifiman Susvaras - super fake, but some of the best fake you'll hear to the point where most people won't care that it's fake in the first place. Hope that makes sense.
  • 35% fake with much more natural and realistic tone, but still not nearly as musical and engaging as an R2R should be. It is somewhat "muddy" like many R2Rs, but also sounds like it has a dash of FPGA/DS to round things out. The May is somewhat of a "middle ground" DAC that doesn't necessarily do anything special and this is my biggest problem with it - it's just boring to me. When I listen to it, I nod my head and think, "hmm, not bad" and that's where it ends. On the other hand, my old DAC from the 90's absolutely trounces the May in musicality and engagement, despite it being less detailed and resolving. That thing keeps me glued to my chair for hours. Listening becomes an addiction.
To put it bluntly, you need to have a clear grasp of your goals and preferences before choosing between these, or any other, DACs. If you don't, you should start there and try them both (along with every other DAC you can get your hands on). There is just no substitute for your ears and you system.

Hope this helps.
Thank you very much.
You definitely write very well.
I kind of understand what you mean by “fake” vs “real”. Efficient way of translating your feelings indeed.
Thank you very much again for your time.
 
Aug 18, 2023 at 5:18 AM Post #115 of 497
Just joined to share my experience with T+A D 200. The T+A performance is night and day between Redbook upsampled PCM Vs Redbook upsampled to DSD256. Redbook PCM is good and competitive with other chip based DACs. Sending Redbook upsampled to DSD256 (in Roon) to the T+A dedicated 1 bit discrete DAC is remarkable - I have not experienced anything as revolutionary as this in 30 years (must have heard and used dozens of DACs). This is now better than the best vinyl ever sounded in EVERY way (something that digital had failed to do for me until now)
 
Aug 18, 2023 at 5:19 AM Post #116 of 497
Just joined to share my experience with T+A D 200. The T+A performance is night and day between Redbook upsampled PCM Vs Redbook upsampled to DSD256. Redbook PCM is good and competitive with other chip based DACs. Sending Redbook upsampled to DSD256 (in Roon) to the T+A dedicated 1 bit discrete DAC is remarkable - I have not experienced anything as revolutionary as this in 30 years (must have heard and used dozens of DACs). This is now better than the best vinyl ever sounded in EVERY way (something that digital had failed to do for me until now)
So you simply use Roon and upsampled with that?

Looking forward to my Wavelight Server in order to test my T+As DSD capabilities
 
Aug 18, 2023 at 5:49 AM Post #117 of 497
So you simply use Roon and upsampled with that?

Looking forward to my Wavelight Server in order to test my T+As DSD capabilities
Yes 7th order upsampler In Roon. I have yet to experiment anything else like HQplayer but the difference is such a dramatic improvement over modern chip based upsampling DACs that I am starting to suspect that all low latency chip based DACs have fundamental issues. How else to explain the resurgence in non chip based discrete designs like R2R etc. which don’t measure as well but have support from entusiasts. I don’t have my original 1986 Sony Discman or anything from the 80’s to compare to.
 
Aug 18, 2023 at 12:51 PM Post #118 of 497
Just joined to share my experience with T+A D 200. The T+A performance is night and day between Redbook upsampled PCM Vs Redbook upsampled to DSD256. Redbook PCM is good and competitive with other chip based DACs. Sending Redbook upsampled to DSD256 (in Roon) to the T+A dedicated 1 bit discrete DAC is remarkable - I have not experienced anything as revolutionary as this in 30 years (must have heard and used dozens of DACs). This is now better than the best vinyl ever sounded in EVERY way (something that digital had failed to do for me until now)
You’ll want to try the HQPlayer, the difference compared to Roon DSP upsampling is huge.
 
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Aug 18, 2023 at 2:28 PM Post #119 of 497
Just joined to share my experience with T+A D 200. The T+A performance is night and day between Redbook upsampled PCM Vs Redbook upsampled to DSD256. Redbook PCM is good and competitive with other chip based DACs. Sending Redbook upsampled to DSD256 (in Roon) to the T+A dedicated 1 bit discrete DAC is remarkable - I have not experienced anything as revolutionary as this in 30 years (must have heard and used dozens of DACs). This is now better than the best vinyl ever sounded in EVERY way (something that digital had failed to do for me until now)
Ever tried DSD on Holo May? Just wondering how it compares since this also has a 1-bit converter
 
Aug 18, 2023 at 10:58 PM Post #120 of 497
Ever tried DSD on Holo May? Just wondering how it compares since this also has a 1-bit converter
No. I was going to get a May then I read a bunch of testimonials of folks who seemed to prefer T+A D200 over the May. I don’t doubt the May sounds good too but I have no experience - so I can’t say.
 

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