[Mink]

I am just curious.
Which headphones, preferably closed back, will give me a similar soundstage as speakers do?

Every single headphones I listened to, Sennheiser HD595, Audio Technica ATH A500 and A700, Beyerdynamic DT660, do have a solid soundstage and
with 'simple' material like for instance Cristina Branco's Fado music, her voice is placed perfectly in the middle at the same height as the instruments, placed left and right, but when listening to orchestal works things get more unnatural.

The ATH A500 I use at the moment (and which I really like a lot) and every other model I tried do give a good impression of instruments that are supposed to be in front of me, but instead of sounding at the same height of my ears - in front of me would mean at the height of my eyes or nose - most instruments are placed much higher.
I get this weird sound-stage where instruments placed in the left and right channel (and beyond that, some are closer, other further away) are at the height of my ears, but most instruments that appear in front of me are much higher, mostly above my head.

Is this common with headphones?
I do not mind really, for me the tonal balance and natural timbre is more important than true to life sound-stage, but still I am curious: is there a pair of headphones out there that mimics the way speakers do well?

 

[ericj]

To get anywhere near speaker-type soundstage you need a jecklin-style headspeaker setup.

Your choices:

Jecklin Float - I hear that "Float 2" dynamic or the "PS2" electrostatic is good.

Precide Ergo - Same company as made the jecklins. Ergo 2 dynamic or Ergo AMT. You'll want the Ergo Amp 2 as well.

Peerless / MB Quart floats - Joerg Jecklin's last revision of his Float design - the QP85 is a good dynamic that is relatively easy to drive. The PMB100 is an orthodynamic that is hard to find. There's also an electrostatic version that is mostly a thing of myth and legend, and a "silvertone" version that some say isn't as good as the regular PMB100.

AKG K1000. This needs a beefy amp too. iirc the Ergo Amp 2 actually works pretty well with it.

Stax Sigma - obviously you'll need a Stax amp.

Did i miss any popular headspeakers? I mean other than the new Sony thing.

 

[spacemanspliff]

Stax and Darth Beyers. I suppose there are some other high end phones but besides the K1000 I have no heard them. Stax probably have the largest and most speaker like sound stage. My SR-Lambdas remind me a lot of a decent monitor speaker setup.

 

[ericj]

I sincerely doubt that a dt770 with a wood back, even if it's got a hole in it, provides speaker-like soundstage.

 

[Edwood]

K1000 is the most speaker like headphones I've heard.

-Ed

 

[MaloS]

K1000 and Stax offerings are the closest you are going to get. With a good recording SR-404 soundstage can be quite impressive =]

 

[Duggeh]

EricJ has covered all of the oft bases. As someone who has heard a lot of the Jecklin chassis designs though I would say that the Ergo AMT is the king of them all for sound staging capacity. It's one area where I think with better ancillary equipment it may better tha H2 and O2. It isn't "speakerlike" though. That's a woollen term that's applied too often and too readily to headphones, I've done so myself. Its a seriously fussy bugger to amp too.

Vertical sound staging, which is what you are referring to by height in the sound, is one of the most difficult things for a headphone to achieve, much trickier than depth and separation.

EricJ if you read your AMT/K1000 comparison the same place that I did then they didn't seem to actually run the K1000 from the AMP2, although its not made terribly clear.

The K1000 and the Sigma offer far closer to a true physical panorama, however I have heard neither. But for that "loudspeaker on the head" the K1000 is popularly and almost certianly rightly, regarded as the king.

 

[IPodPJ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duggeh /img/forum/go_quote.gif The K1000 and the Sigma offer far closer to a true physical panorama, however I have heard neither. But for that "loudspeaker on the head" the K1000 is popularly and almost certianly rightly, regarded as the king.

Commercially, you mean. Surely it can't beat that baseball hat/speaker contraption you built?

 

[Duggeh]

I'll make my millions when I perfect that design.

 

[003]

The PFR-V1 has not been mentioned it yet, but then again nobody here has heard it.

 

[Fitz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericj /img/forum/go_quote.gif Did i miss any popular headspeakers? I mean other than the new Sony thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 003 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The PFR-V1 has not been mentioned it yet, but then again nobody here has heard it.

Ahem.

- - -

I'd put the Sigma down as having the most "out of your head" soundstage of any headphones I've heard, although it takes some getting used to the sonic signature of them. The K1000 does soundstage much better than most headphones, but it still sounds like a headphone if you compare it to a real set of speakers.

 

[shomie911]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edwood /img/forum/go_quote.gif K1000 is the most speaker like headphones I've heard. -Ed

Cause they're basically speakers strapped to your head

 

[Mink]

Thanks guys!
I really appreciate the helpful replies.

I will shop around, trying to get a good deal somewhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duggeh /img/forum/go_quote.gif EricJ Vertical sound staging, which is what you are referring to by height in the sound, is one of the most difficult things for a headphone to achieve, much trickier than depth and separation.

Well I perceived height with every phones I mentioned, my ATH does a good job as-well, but it doesn't seem that consequently adapted across the whole range.
Instruments that are supposed to sound at the same height as some I receive in the left/right channel are mostly placed much higher, above my head instead of inline with the others.
And mostly with classical music, not that much with pop or electronics

I listened to Autechre lately and eveything was flat, in one line from left to right, the middle was very solid - I could almost look at it.

But then Mahler 5 (Boulez on DG): flutes and clarinets clearly positioned in the middle.
Though solidly in front of me it sounded as if they were almost 5 feet above the rest of the orchestra, both not exactly at the same height - so obviously my ATH does something good with vertical positioning - but I wouldn't call it natural.

Edit:
I am well aware that the range of a flutes tone goes higher and rises above the rest of the instruments, but in this case both the start of the note and the decay are placed above the rest of the instruments.

 

[spacemanspliff]

Open Darths have a speaker soundstage. A very small one but yes. Stax are waaaay bigger.

 

[facelvega]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericj /img/forum/go_quote.gif Peerless / MB Quart floats - Joerg Jecklin's last revision of his Float design - the QP85 is a good dynamic that is relatively easy to drive. The PMB100 is an orthodynamic that is hard to find. There's also an electrostatic version that is mostly a thing of myth and legend, and a "silvertone" version that some say isn't as good as the regular PMB100.

Actually, to be precise, according to our best current knowledge:

PMB1000 : L-shaped earpad electrostats
PMB500 : oval-shaped earpad electrostats
PMB100 : orthodynamics
PMB85 double action: dual-driver dynamics
PMB SL Silverline: single-driver dynamics with small drivers
QP85 : single-driver dynamics with relatively large drivers (yet still smaller than the non-float QP95)

I've had the 100, silverline, and QP85. The silverline was far the weakest of the three, and was foam-filled to the point of ruining the soundstage. There may have been a PMB85 that was not double action but more akin to the QP85, I don't know.