[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotJeffBuckley Edit: It's your money, spend it however you wish, but don't call into question the motives of people with nothing to lose by suggesting you need more evidence than, oh, *absolutely none* before laying down $10,000.

If you're suggesting that skeptics have no motive underlying their positions and their repeated posts on this forum, that is false.

And, for the 567th time, there is evidence for cable differences -- people claim to have heard them.

P.S. This is a DBT-free forum, folks. Or at least it is supposed to be, notwithstanding the repeated violation of the spirit of this rule even when DBT is not mentioned.

 

[Patrick82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Mitchell Tonight I brought it up to the office, cleaned it, hooked it up, and was really surprised by the difference. Sure, I could be fooling myself, but if this is what it takes to make my brain hear better, I think I can live with it!

If an upgrade will make you hear more in the recording then it's worth it even if it's a placebo! In some cases, placebo is the only way.

After every upgrade everyone concentrates more on the recording to hear differences, that way you can detect things you never heard before even if the upgrade didn't give any improvement at all.
However, this didn't work for me when I accidentally upgraded to something that didn't give an improvement and I was surprised I didn't hear an improvement even after 2 weeks. So there you go, I'm not affected by placebo.

I concentrate hard right before doing an upgrade and try to find things I may have missed, but I never hear anything new until after the upgrade.
If I downgrade the system I still hear the new things in the recording because I now know they are there! I think this is the biggest reason why it makes many skeptics wonder if there was any improvement at all.

 

[geforcewong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick82 If an upgrade will make you hear more in the recording then it's worth it even if it's a placebo! In some cases, placebo is the only way. After every upgrade everyone concentrates more on the recording to hear differences, that way you can detect things you never heard before even if the upgrade didn't give any improvement at all. However, this didn't work for me when I accidentally upgraded to something that didn't give an improvement and I was surprised I didn't hear an improvement even after 2 weeks. So there you go, I'm not affected by placebo.

Patrick, just curious, what accidental upgrade did you make and still did not hear an improvement? The reason why I'm asking is because price may be an influencing factor as to whether you suffered from a placebo effect or not. It is possible that a several hundred dollar upgrade won't affect your expectations for increased performance, where as a several grand cable might influence your expectations and make you more susceptible to a placebo effect whether you realize it or not. Just a thought, not disagreeing with you as to whether cables make a difference or not. Cables are one of those really touchy subjects in the audio world and one I don't want to get into an argument over. This whole cable argument is probably going to be one of those never ending debates, just like the whole argument from some who say there is no God because they can not see, hear, or smell, touch him

.

 

[NotJeffBuckley]

It needs to be pointed out that the article linked doesn't address the perception expectancy effect, rather the medical context of the placebo effect. It's a much different animal with much more predictable results: people sense what they are led to believe they should sense.

If you have to know which cables you're using to hear a difference, you're not hearing a difference.

There are flaws in the DBT methodology regarding audio testing, yes, but the flaws in non-blind testing are so much more vast that I seriously question the integrity of anyone suggesting a testing method that isn't at least single-blind.

 

[smeggy]

I like being tone deaf on cables, gives me more cash to spend on actual equiptment

I didn't notice any difference before cables became fashionable, don't see why I should start now..

 

[ssportclay]

Tonearm wires>interconnects>headphone cables>speaker cables:Spend the most money on tonearm cables and interconnects and buy your speaker wires at radio shack or home depot.

 

[Patrick82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by geforcewong Patrick, just curious, what accidental upgrade did you make and still did not hear an improvement? The reason why I'm asking is because price may be an influencing factor as to whether you suffered from a placebo effect or not. It is possible that a several hundred dollar upgrade won't affect your expectations for increased performance, where as a several grand cable might influence your expectations and make you more susceptible to a placebo effect whether you realize it or not.

I spent over a grand on CD tweaks but they make no difference because my Cary 303/300 re-clocks the signal. I didn't know that and found it later in the white paper a few weeks later.
I paid only $800 for my used Valhalla interconnect and got a subtle improvement with EMU0404 soundcard. I spent only $100 on MultiWave II+ upgrade and it was the biggest single upgrade I ever made. I spent $77 on QuickSilver Contact Enhancer and after treating the whole system it was like a $2000+ improvement overall. I definitely didn't expect that at all! It made a bigger difference than upgrading to Valhalla power cord ($1350 used). So based on these upgrades the cheapest ones gave the biggest improvements.
The biggest improvement I heard was the one I least expected; xStream Statement Power Cables between wall and Power Plants, they gave 4 times bigger improvement than any of the upgrades I listed above.

 

[NotJeffBuckley]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick82 The biggest improvement I heard was the one I least expected; xStream Statement Power Cables between wall and Power Plants, they gave 4 times bigger improvement than any of the upgrades I listed above.

You paid $500 for a power cable which just carries the same electricity that goes over miles and miles of normal wire and then through feet and feet of smaller normal wire, and you claim to hear a difference... But you don't think you could tell if you didn't know it was in use? What claims do the manufacturer make about the cable? How is there supposed to be any tangible difference what-so-ever from putting a bit of slightly different but functionally identical wire between miles of normal wire and your equipment, which supposedly negates power fluctuations, etc., anyway...

What kind of... the only conceivable way that this could make a difference is singularly if the company (which I notice makes all of the other items in your power chain) specifically designed them to be comparatively faulty with other types of wire, and if they are specifically intended to be matched with the resistance of that power cable in particular. That is to say, if they designed it to suck without that extra $500 dollar "upgrade." And your post says you sold your trance and started buying "reference" quality classical... Are you listening to music or trying to conjure differences in your system through recordings?

 

[Wodgy]

Jeff, it's useless to try to be rational about Patrick82's rig.

Just sit back and read this post:
http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showp...51&postcount=1
Then take a deep breath and resist the urge to stab yourself with a fork.

The guy has $9,240 in power cables and power conditioning gear for driving $700 headphones. Just maybe... maybe... he might be less than rational about power conditioning.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick82 When a skeptic listens to an audio system, does it sound like real life to him? If it does, then of course cables will make no difference at all. This might also be the reason why so many prefer Sennheiser in this forum. For me, K501 sounds horrible and not close to real life at all, and HD590 is much worse.

Very bad idea to bring headphones into this discussion... you're inviting a flame war.

Actually, you deserve to be flamed for pompous and presumptuous statements like the one regarding Sennheiser in the quote above -- great job there condemning an entire headphone manufacturer. I'll withhold the flames since I respect forum rules, but I hope someone slaps you down for such idiocy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick82 Unfortunately, humans try to find a logical reason other than themselves being wrong, that's why a conflict starts.

More like: Humans say stupid things without thinking first.

 

[NotJeffBuckley]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wodgy Jeff, it's useless to try to be rational about Patrick82's rig. Just sit back and read this post: http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showp...51&postcount=1 Then take a deep breath and resist the urge to stab yourself with a fork. The guy has $9,240 in power cables and power conditioning gear for driving $700 headphones. Just maybe... maybe... he might be less than rational about power conditioning.

Thank you for pointing that out. I need to go do... something... productive, now, to make myself feel less bad about the fact that an individual sees fit to spend that much money on...

I need to go sit down.

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerius Ok then. Tell me, how would one measure soundstage size, depth, and height using instruments?

And the cables you use, give you the difeerences in soundstage, size, hight and depth???

I thouhgt that this was a result of drivers placement, your geometrical position in front of them, and reflections in walls, and of course quality of amps and source used, the cables are just able to give you what is given to them, nothing else, there is no cable able to give you soundstage if the signal is collapsed...

We also have direct measuments, as resistance, capacitance, etc....and indirect measurements, in other words, soundstage is IMO a result of many variables that are indeed measurable, a combination of measurable dimensions...Sound is a mechanical wave, and as such is fully measurable...

 

[elrod-tom]

I'd like to remind everyone of a couple of things:

1) There is a reason that we don't "conveniently" (as one member put it) allow discussion of DBT: it's because the the discussion invariably breaks down into a pointless and increasingly nasty back and forth between opposing camps of true believers. Like this thread, for example...

2) To the extent that members of one camp can control their urge to call out the members of the opposing camp, I'll allow discussion to continue. However, this thread is well on the way to being locked. I see no reason to prattle on about how those who spend more money on cables are fools, any more than suggesting the opposing viewpoint is narrow minded.

Keep it civil, and we'll keep it open. Thanks...

 

[Patrick82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotJeffBuckley You paid $500 for a power cable which just carries the same electricity that goes over miles and miles of normal wire and then through feet and feet of smaller normal wire, and you claim to hear a difference...

I didn't expect you to say that, now it makes sense.

Looks like you need some basic understanding on how electricity works.

From PS Audio.
Quote:

Shielding a power cable is critical for two reasons: to protect the power from any noise radiated from the outside environment and to protect the other equipment from the radiated noise of the AC power line itself. Why is this necessary? Many PS customers want to understand why a short length of a well shielded power cord makes any difference when that very power cord is attached to your home’s internal wiring that is perhaps 100 feet in length and acting like a superb antenna for noise! Good question, but so too is the answer. Every piece of equipment in your system radiates RF in the air as well as places switching noise from your equipment’s power supplies onto the line. If you’re really interested in reading more on this subject, take the time to read Lynn Olson’s terrific article The Sound of the Machine. Near the end of the article there’s quite a good explanation of why power cords make such an improvement. Think of it in terms of relative strength of the radiated noise. The walls in your home pickup noise, but the typical strength of that noise is quite low relative to one of the single biggest sources of radiated noise in your home; your AV system.

 

[Wodgy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick82 Shielding a power cable is critical for two reasons: to protect the power from any noise radiated from the outside environment and to protect the other equipment from the radiated noise of the AC power line itself.

I don't get it. You're quoting people who say shielding is "critical", yet you're using the Nordost Valhallas, which are unshielded.