SOUND VOLUME DIFFERENCE
Nov 5, 2019 at 10:01 PM Post #2 of 13
I got both cca c10 and kz zs5.
Using PC setup (PC->DAC->RCA->Adapter->3.5mm->IEM), why is cca c10 loudnesss is around twice of the kz zs5 (using same volume level in PC)?
Any experts can help?

Thanks

Different IEMs have different sensitivity values and impedance, so this will affect the perceived loudness at same settings. Are your cables also the same?
CCA C10 sensitivity: 108dB, 32Ω resistance
KZ ZS5 sensitivity: 106dB, 16Ω resistance

Some IEMs also use special technology like planars or piezo drivers (not in the CCA C10 or ZS5), and these are generally harder to drive than the usual BA IEMs.
 
Nov 5, 2019 at 10:29 PM Post #3 of 13
Everything same setup (sound level, cable, etc2), only IEM swap.
The thing is that this volume difference doesn't exist? (might need to reconfirm) if I use a mobile phone as DAP (don't have actual DAP to test).

The kz zs5 actually have about the same volume level as the normal speaker setup I use (DAC->RCA->speaker setup).
Only the cca c10 is different
 
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Nov 5, 2019 at 11:30 PM Post #4 of 13
I got both cca c10 and kz zs5.
Using PC setup (PC->DAC->RCA->Adapter->3.5mm->IEM), why is cca c10 loudnesss is around twice of the kz zs5 (using same volume level in PC)?
Any experts can help?

Thanks
could be that the difference is caused by the impedance output of the devices you're using. when you explain you setup, are saying you're going straight from a DAC's line out to the IEM? if so, then mystery solved. a DAC will have maybe 100 or 150ohm at the output, that's more than enough to completely change the frequency response of some multidriver IEM with a very chaotic impedance curve. as the impact is directly function of the IEM's own impedance curve, it's entirely possible that you end up feeling like one is clearly louder than the other. although in practice it's more likely that you're just getting a noticeable change in signature compared to a cellphone or other DAP with a more reasonable impedance output.
google didn't give me anything on the respective impedance curve for those IEMs, so my post isn't just an educated guess. if someone has measured them, then we could get a better idea of what to expect when used with a high impedance "amp".
 
Nov 6, 2019 at 1:28 PM Post #6 of 13
I got both cca c10 and kz zs5.
Using PC setup (PC->DAC->RCA->Adapter->3.5mm->IEM), why is cca c10 loudnesss is around twice of the kz zs5 (using same volume level in PC)?

C10 has 2dB/1mW higher sensitivity. And that assumes both are accurate figures or were measured the same way, ie, 108dB/1mW and 106dB/1mW at 1000hz.


Everything same setup (sound level, cable, etc2), only IEM swap.
The thing is that this volume difference doesn't exist? (might need to reconfirm) if I use a mobile phone as DAP (don't have actual DAP to test).

What "PC" ie motherboard are you using?

At 18ohms vs 32ohms, a crap motherboard can drop power output significantly at either the same way even hifi headphone amps can have less power at 16ohms than they do at 32ohms or vice versa, except you're starting off with a higher figure so in most cases it's inconsequential.

That or your motherboard has some kind of automatic impedance sensing circuit (as on some Gaming boards) which only looks at impedance without taking sensitivity into account. It's like putting a smaller engine into a smaller car on the basis of it being lighter but that body was never tested in a wind tunnel and now above 100kph the fat sedans it was toe to toe with are dusting it.


The kz zs5 actually have about the same volume level as the normal speaker setup I use (DAC->RCA->speaker setup).
Only the cca c10 is different

Here's your other problem. You're going by perception, not actual measurements at one frequency much less a full spectrum graph, or even just your ears but on one freq sinewave.

That's like testing torque output and acceleration by how it feels at the seat of your pants, when an older V6 Mustang can go from 0 to 105kph in 6.5seconds with a satisfying kick while a Honda S2000 deceptively gets to 105kph in under 6secs without that kicking sensation. Or you sharpen a knife with a cheap 400grit, claim it's all skill and not the price of the knife or the stone...and then use as basis for how sharp it is how it feels on your fingers when that's the jagged peeled off metal still sticking to the knife that will result in raw fish slices on the plate that look like they were chainsawed off the filet, losing juices between slicing and consumption.

Yes, the Mustang has more torque, but it's not faster than the S2000, much less around a track. Yes, that knife has a sharper bevel, but that's comparing it to the dull rod you started with, which says nothing of how refined the edge actually is.

In short your perception of loudness is very, very, very far from accurate. That's not to say it's totally wrong, but by how much is it louder is problematic in taking a qualitative data as quantitative data. A good deal of difference can be due to the difference in frequency response, ie, one being louder in some frequencies can make it seem louder - either because the midrange is louder, or when the treble is louder you hold off on the output sooner and get less bass, and vice versa and perceive the sound to be much smoother - which exacerbates any number of the other things previously listed that may explain the difference.

Personally, if the sound is usable to you otherwise (save for adjusting the volume), then any other problem is not big enough to be perceptible to you anyway.
 
Nov 6, 2019 at 9:07 PM Post #8 of 13
DAC->RCA->Adapter->3.5mm->IEM. Count as straight?
Well the volume issue is that I basically have to halve or more the OS volume control or it'll be too loud
yes, unless RCA means the name of some amp instead of the type of plug. a DAC's job is to convert digital to analog, an amplifier's job is to drive a load(IEM/headphone). they may look like the same analog stuff at the output, where you don't care for an amplifier if it's already loud enough, but they have a few big differences. and what you experience could be the consequences of doing it wrong.
now if your DAC had a headphone output, that output would probably work as intended, but the RCA plugs are certainly a line output to feed an amplifier, not a headphone out.
 
Nov 6, 2019 at 10:37 PM Post #9 of 13
RCA is cable/plug.
I thought you don't need an amp if it can drive the IEM properly.
I just tested both zs5 and c10 with a mobile phone (using same cable and volume level).
They both sounds about the same but c10 has boost in certain frequencies.
Generally, mobile phones don't have an amp do they?
 
Nov 6, 2019 at 11:04 PM Post #10 of 13
RCA is cable/plug.
I thought you don't need an amp if it can drive the IEM properly.
I just tested both zs5 and c10 with a mobile phone (using same cable and volume level).
They both sounds about the same but c10 has boost in certain frequencies.
Generally, mobile phones don't have an amp do they?
so my first post is the likely answer to your experience. a DAC (Digital to Analog Converter) is tasked with doing that, and nothing else and doesn't have the impedance output appropriate for IEMs(and maybe also not the ability to handle the current draw).
yes a cellphone has an amp section. truth be told, even a DAC has one in a sense, but the design of a DAC is fully made while expecting an amplifier with something like 5 to 10kohm at the input. on the other hand, an amplifier or any device with a dedicated headphone plug, is designed expecting somewhere between 16 and maybe up to 300 or 600ohm being plugged into it. it's not a stretch to say that they have a different job, even without considering the digital to analog part.
 
Nov 7, 2019 at 12:02 AM Post #11 of 13
I'm using an external DAC. Does motherboard still matters?
I've to halve the OS master volume from 100 to 50. I know I got subpar hearing but it's not like it's from 100 down to 99/98.
RCA is cable/plug.

Wait...what? I thought what your diagram meant was that you were using the "DAC" (ie the entire audio circuit) on the motherboard.

So...you have an RCA to 3.5mm adapter on that external DAC? You're just using a DAC, without an amplifier circuit? That's why the interaction difference can be drastic. That high output impedance, no current performance line output (ie not an amplified headphone output) is designed for a 100ohm (if not 1000ohm to 10,000hm) line input on an amplifier.

In any case...no, the motherboard doesn't matter anymore. Except what you're doing is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay worse.


I thought you don't need an amp if it can drive the IEM properly.

You still need an amplifier circuit. What you don't need is a separate amp, much less something like a Schiit Lyr, which might actually be detrimental as even with a competent engineer a circuit with higher output will have higher noise and distortion. Not that it means anything with higher output always has more distortion and noise than a badly designed or more compromises made cheaper amp, just that even if you get one good engineer to design two amps, even if the more powerful amp costs more due to all the parts and the labor to design the circuit that would pump out power but manage junk, you can still end up with higher distortion and noise on the more powerful amp.


I just tested both zs5 and c10 with a mobile phone (using same cable and volume level).
They both sounds about the same but c10 has boost in certain frequencies.

That's the response differences between those two IEMs.


Generally, mobile phones don't have an amp do they?

They have an amp circuit built into the audio chip. On Snapdragon phones it's built into the Snapdragon chipset. The quality of these range from something like a current Ryzen 5 APU with embedded Vega 12/10/8 GPU all the way down to the regular Intel CPU with embedded HD620 GPU chip.

The idea that IEMs don't need an amp is like stating that since League of Legends don't need an RTX 2080 Ti Kingpin you can use an old CPU with no embedded graphics chip and no graphics card.


By the way how to measure?

Depends on what exactly you're going to measure. If you're just measuring overall output and system response from the headphones, and you want purely quantitative data, get one of those dummy heads with ears and a cavity in which you can put a microphone. Play a sine sweep and then run it through an RTA program. That's going to give you a basic, raw, uncompensated response curve.
 
Nov 7, 2019 at 3:20 PM Post #13 of 13
Is it possible to get an amplifier circuit only?

When I mean an amplifier circuit it means you can embed that circuit into a chip, like how the ESS DAC chips on good smartphones like the Exynos Samsungs or the B&O modules on LG phones have the DAC and amp circuits in the same chip. Just nothing like a separate amplifier with its own power supply and power capacitors and more complex circuits that can deliver more power with lower distortion and noise.

That's like the difference between a Ryzen 5 with embedded Vega 8 mobile CPU and an MSI TriFrozr Lightning Z RTX 2080 Ti.

The thing is, you can't just add the circuit. If you mean using the amp circuit on your computer, well there's still the same problem. At minimum you're gonna need the Burson Audio Play, isn't just a circuit but is an actual amp with its chassis and packaged with a power supply that either sits on your desk and uses the external DC power supply or slots into a 5.25in drive bay on the chassis with the option to run PC PSU cables to power it with a computer's modular power supply. At best, going back to the GPU analogy, it's like hooking up an external GPU via Thunderbolt.

If you mean with the phone, that's an even bigger problem. That's like trying to take not the TriFrozr Lightning Z but something like the swappable GPU cards on an Alienware Area 51 desktop replacement and trying to run it on any other laptop.


or should I just get a separate amp instead?

If you mean with the PC, well, that's about your only option if you can't find the option to increase the gain on the motherboard's on-board sound or it doesn't have it. You already have a DAC anyway, so you can hook up its RCA outptus to the amplifier's RCA inputs.
 

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