[epion2985]

haha, thanks for the offer. I dont know to much so like I said do correct me

Well technicalities aside, if a copied CD sounds different then how does the music industry produce millions of bit perfect cd's?

 

[Romanee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by epion2985 haha, thanks for the offer. I dont know to much so like I said do correct me Well technicalities aside, if a copied CD sounds different then how does the music industry produce millions of bit perfect cd's?

Oy! This could get really complicated.

Lan will have to help explain his particular setup and results. Leaving off the industry bit-perfect copies, Lan's "re-burns" of exceptionally good recordings in particular were made (to oversimplify the routine) on a Yahama F-1 burner, which basically increases or improves the spacing between the pits and lands, so that some CD transports simply are better able to read and process the information with better timing, less loss of ultra fine detail, nuances, subtleties and produce a sound that is more complete, more refined, more musical, more satisfying and perhaps more accurate than the original where the pits and lands were closer together.

Better technical description would be appreciated.

In any case, to my ears the Lan/Yahama F-1 re-burns do sound somewhat improved over the originals, especially the first of the 2 that I have -- Virtuoso Vengerov, which has very complex harmonic structure and many very fast violin passages with some fast, subtle high harmonic passages which have very subtle, difficult to reproduce timbral nuances. Further, there are spatial subtleties involving violinist Vengerov's tendency to move his violin and body a lot -- he is a very muscular, energetic, dramatic and passionate player -- and the sense of movement is more perceptible on the re-burn, as is the "weight" and balance of the accompanying piano, relative to the violin, the overall dynamics and performance energy, (etc., etc.)

So the fact that Lan's re-burns sound different -- and improved -- as compared to the originals is not necessarily related to jitter, but he tells the truth when he says that some headfiers have heard the differences from the originals.

All that said -- in another thread, long, long ago and far away (chuckle) -- there were, of course, a number of posters who dogmatically insisted that it's impossible to hear any such difference. Then again, there are still those who refuse to acknowledge that some of us do hear differences after product burn in.

 

[Glassman]

for different discs of different quality, the drive's servo has less or more work.. there are substantial peak current draws from the servo amps which can modulate supply rails for the rest of the player.. not to mention RF generated at the same time.. just stop thinking digital when we're dealing with analog problem.. there is absolutely no doubt all the discs are read bit-perfect, but the bits don't tell the whole story..

 

[epion2985]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Romanee some headfiers have heard the differences from the originals.

placebo could be acolprit

but I see your point

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glassman for different discs of different quality, the drive's servo has less or more work.. there are substantial peak current draws from the servo amps which can modulate supply rails for the rest of the player.. not to mention RF generated at the same time.. just stop thinking digital when we're dealing with analog problem.. there is absolutely no doubt all the discs are read bit-perfect, but the bits don't tell the whole story..

I see, hm. Where is the analog when you are sending a digital signal from one device to another? Wouldnt the analog part be after the dac? This whole thing intriges me, facinating

*gets popcorn*

 

[Oski]

Lan also re-recorded two CDs for me and like Romanee so elequently stated above, there is a slight but noticeable change in the re-recorded CD for me as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by epion2985 placebo could be acolprit but I see your point

While I can't refute the placebo effect completely, I think we generally have enough experience in audio and honesty with ourselves that the difference can't be fully explained this way. Also, the 2 CDs I had re-recorded were amongst my favorite and therefore very familiar with, Chicane "Behing the Sun" and Koop "Waltz for Koop".

From my understanding in the general CD manufacturing and pressing process jitter is introduced. Because in the re-recording process the computer is performing error correction and the subsequent burn from the Yamaha F-1 is very accurate, there becomes less inherent jitter in the copy. Subsequent playback has better sound quality as a result.

You may want to try it as well, and depending on the quality of your setup and CD burner, there may be a difference as well.

 

[epion2985]

I really will, thanks for the information guys. Now I need to buy the Yamaha F-1 or send lan 500 pounds of cd's

 

[Magsy]

With a good card you should have output transformers on the coax out, I do on my 0404's. This means the output is isolated from the computer, at least to some level.

Nobody yet has discussed the use of RCA's for SPDIF. It is totally unacceptable, SPDIF calls for 75 ohms impedance from end to end. RCA jacks are not 75 ohm. You need BNC jacks on everything to meet the specs.

 

[dknightd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by epion2985 When you are pushing 1's and 0's jitter does not matter.

It doesn't matter if all you are concerned about is getting
the 1's and 0's, but, if you are also concerned about when the 1's and 0's arrive then it does matter. Many (most?) DACS depend on the timing of the incoming 1's and 0's when converting them to an analog signal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by epion2985 You either get the 1 or 0 at the right time or you dont, and if you dont the device requests the data to be resent, thats why we have buffers.

This is not true for SPDIF (either coax or optical). It is a one way communication, the receiving device has no way to tell the sending device it did not get the data and request a resend.

 

[epion2985]

I see, hm.

The way I was going to get set up was to run a nice coax SPDIF cable from X-fi 5.25" bay controll panel to my DAC. I gues my only other alternative, since X-fi cards dont have SPDIF out on the card is to use the mic 3.5mm jack to DAC and that sounds iffy to me.

 

[epion2985]

what do you think?

 

[BradH]

I'm curious of the answer on this as well.

I'm also planning to do X-Fi digital out (3.5mm multi-jack) to an external DAC (Channel Islands VDA1 w/ VAC1). Per epion2985's original question - what is the *right* cable to do this?

 

[epion2985]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BradH I'm curious of the answer on this as well. I'm also planning to do X-Fi digital out (3.5mm multi-jack) to an external DAC (Channel Islands VDA1 w/ VAC1). Per epion2985's original question - what is the *right* cable to do this?

Actually I am slowly turning away from that solution. Feels a bit iffy. Seems the best way is a nice shielded SPDIF coax.

 

[BradH]

I ordered one of the Belden 1505F 75 ohm mini to RCA cables from RAM, so I'll let you know how it works out. My prediction is that it'll be just fine.

 

[BradH]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BradH I ordered one of the Belden 1505F 75 ohm mini to RCA cables from RAM, so I'll let you know how it works out. My prediction is that it'll be just fine.

Just to close out this thread, I'm using this cable with no problems.

 

[Daroid]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magsy With a good card you should have output transformers on the coax out, I do on my 0404's. This means the output is isolated from the computer, at least to some level. Nobody yet has discussed the use of RCA's for SPDIF. It is totally unacceptable, SPDIF calls for 75 ohms impedance from end to end. RCA jacks are not 75 ohm. You need BNC jacks on everything to meet the specs.

Does not look like the Xfi has any galvanic isolation. Hard to see, but might just be an op-amp attenuating the signal to 0.5V-pp and a capacitor with a resistor as a filter.

To add onto this excellent post above:
Even the 75 Ohm video boutique coax cables are not 75 ohm, but use a cable with a high variance, often +/-10%, some use 50 ohm per "accident".
Problem with BNC is that you need tools to DIY, and mod the source with BNC, galvanically isolate the signal, impedance/inductance match the signal on both sides of the transformer, and amplify/buffer it, keep PCB traces short. It's a hell