[boodi]

, it seems to me that the maturity and longevity of Sony flagship DAPs is strongly underappreciated

I feel quite the opposite ( that Sony flagship daps are quite well appreciated in the long run )

Sony often seems ignored in favour of brands releasing multiple DAPs per year or squarely falling into luxury products with prices making the WM1ZM2 feel cheap,

1zm2 is one of the top and most revered dap though still and strongly kept in place , if not the most favourite, among multi kilobucks iems owners and top reviewers around the world

 

[proedros]

The main reason is we’re all insane here. Some more than others.

''Show me a sane man, and i will cure him for you.''

Carl Gustav Jung

 

[Tiax]

Just some reflexion after looking at the DAP market through the eyes of a happy Sony WM1AM2 owner.

You've bought the new toy, it's the best toy ever and you'll stay with it forever.
Or until a new toy catches your eye
I've heard this story before.

 

[NewEve]

You've bought the new toy, it's the best toy ever and you'll stay with it forever.
Or until a new toy catches your eye
I've heard this story before.

At almost 2-years old, it's the DAP I had the longest in almost 10 years of hobby.

It passed the "new toy" period a while ago

 

[NewEve]

I feel quite the opposite ( that Sony flagship daps are quite well appreciated in the long run )

That's my point – in the long run they are but seems often missed out on release.

1zm2 is one of the top and most revered dap though still and strongly kept in place , if not the most favourite, among multi kilobucks iems owners and top reviewers around the world

I concur — it's just that, compared to some recent releases, it can almost be perceived as "cheap" — I mean some DAPs reached 5k.

 

[Vamp898]

Is there something special about Sony that attracts this kind of people, or are there microSD card believers in other threads as well?
Or are all of them buy Sony DAP eventually and end up here?

DAPs are too good these days.

Almost all DAPs are as close to perfection as it is technically possible. The Bottleneck are the IEM but those TOTL IEM are insanely close to perfection to.

And that is the reason. If you buy an Walkman with some good IEM, you're done. You've spent a ton of money and your journey ended almost instantly.

And then there are two type of people. The ones who just enjoy music and are done and the others who get bored and want to continue the journey.

The exact same thing exists in all other hobbies but High End Audio is so expensive, that its more dangerous here.

Everyone who is into IT has virtual machines and plays with them or writes code and stuff and just has fun. Cost: Pretty much nothing People into TRPG buy new rule books from time to time and play around with changing the rules: Cost: a few bucks for ebooks (or books) and maybe some nice dice.

But High End Audio, when people are bored and start to play around, they spend 4-6 figure numbers on things that make absolutely zero difference or even worsen what they had before.

For some people, this hobby is listening to music and finding the gear that makes it sound best. For others, the hobby is the gear and listening to it.

But if you openly state, that your most enjoyment is the gear, your opinion isn't worth anything so pretty much nobody openly admits that.

 

[boodi]

That's my point – in the long run they are but seems often missed out on release.


I concur — it's just that, compared to some recent releases, it can almost be perceived as "cheap" — I mean some DAPs reached 5k.

it doesn't look much different then other brands to me

Shanling m9+ ( powerbeast and ultrarefined , stageing , tilted analogue ) is like a shadow still
a&k sp3000 ( definitely didn't attract worldwide follow , while sp2000/ti/cu gathered it more-so and in the long run )
Fiio m15s ( another powebeast and linearly refined , nearly on par with m17 ) in the shadows or so still

it's true also that lately technology and refinement on portable scales up sooner and faster then in the past , so products overlap one eachother ( think iems .. but daps are in a similar mood )

 

[boodi]

I understand that the diehard audiophile that wants it all and on portable and has no money concerns at all or so , he will look to buy the last realeases ..always ,, then eventually keep them or resell some of them for a small loss .. no big concerns so , he can afford to compare totl products and choose ; differences are definitely there, weight/battery/power/usability/optionability and..sound signature ( yes they are all quite different ..small differences , or also the ones that account for a choice to that X person so .. my exp, my ears at least )

 

[boodi]

DAPs are too good these days.

Almost all DAPs are as close to perfection as it is technically possible. The Bottleneck are the IEM but those TOTL IEM are insanely close to perfection to.

yet totally different or quite so , some of them

xe6 and Jewel and Trailli : very different one from the other but .. probably close as possible to their "wanted perfected signature"

headphones are same .. Susvara or Elite do not sound very much alike ..or do not wear alike .. let alone Ab1266 etc etc

 

[Vamp898]

it doesn't look much different then other brands to me

Shanling m9+ ( powerbeast and ultrarefined , stageing , tilted analogue ) is like a shadow still
a&k sp3000 ( definitely didn't attract worldwide follow , while sp2000/ti/cu gathered it more-so and in the long run )
Fiio m15s ( another powebeast and linearly refined , nearly on par with m17 ) in the shadows or so still

it's true also that lately technology and refinement on portable scales up sooner and faster then in the past , so products overlap one eachother ( think iems .. but daps are in a similar mood )

I think its the price mostly.

Shanling M9+ uses Stock, Off-the-shelve Hardware for 2700€... thats a tough price.
A&K SP3000 does the exact same thing and sells for 4300€

Those are very very tough prices, even outpricing Sony.

If you are more expensive than the "original" who invented the product, but then use nothing exclusive or special that sets apart your product from an 650€ M11 Plus ESS, why should people buy it?

If Sony would stop making DAP tomorrow, completely quit production, i would buy an M11 Plus ESS and just use that. What you get with the Walkman, you can not get from any other company that exists. What you get from Shanling and A&K, you can get from almost every Chinese company that makes DAP.

Sure, you can cash in on the die hard audiophile but mostly these products are invented (and marketed) not for audiophiles but rich people who want to have it for the sake of having it. So of course they are not talked about that much because nobody owns them. Or the people who own it are not active here because most of them live in China and Japan.

A&K marketed the SP3000 not for its insane sound quality, but for using the same materials that are used in watches. When you DAP markets that he uses the same material than watches, the target group is clear imho

Sony: "We use copper to reduce the output impedance, look at our self developed capacitors and our self develop lead to give our self developed full digital amp the best sound quality possible with these giant LCs"

A&K: "We use an material that is shiny and looks good and is durable and also used in watches. Inside you find chips that cost 30$ on the open market but because we put them on an PCB, they are better. You don't believe us? Better do. If you pay 700$ extra, we coat it even in gold for you! The sound? I don't know, doesn't change, but look how shiny it is"

 

[boodi]

it' a luxury market.
there' choice too.

you want to spend 100 , or 500 or 3000 ?
you have choice, any day

the beauty is in the eye of the beholder ,,I guess at totl levels , it can be said that the pleasure for sound is in the ears ( or brain reaction ? ) of the beholder
small differences count in a paint reproduction , or not : it depends on who looks into it . but both , original and reproduction , can sell well , reproduction can come in a luxury frame or raw , laser printed or solid paint ..etc

 

[Tiax]

Sony: "We use copper to reduce the output impedance, look at our self developed capacitors and our self develop lead to give our self developed full digital amp the best sound quality possible with these giant LCs"

The thing is, all these magical self developed components don't offer much real improvement, since off-the-shelf stuff is already very very good.

WM1AM2 is great, but so are many other DAPS and dac/amps around this price. For the sound only i'd rather take mojo2 for example

 

[boodi]

The thing is, all these magical self developed components don't offer much real improvement, since off-the-shelf stuff is already very very good.

WM1AM2 is great, but so are many other DAPS and dac/amps around this price. For the sound only i'd rather take mojo2 for example

functions are very different
sound preference and general personal use and preference is a thing too

( mojo 2 is not even a DAP.. no screen no memory no wifi no 4.4balanced out only single ended circuit .. you add in 600$ Poly and still you do not have a screen etc )

 

[nioh]

I think its the price mostly.

Shanling M9+ uses Stock, Off-the-shelve Hardware for 2700€... thats a tough price.
A&K SP3000 does the exact same thing and sells for 4300€

Those are very very tough prices, even outpricing Sony.

If you are more expensive than the "original" who invented the product, but then use nothing exclusive or special that sets apart your product from an 650€ M11 Plus ESS, why should people buy it?

If Sony would stop making DAP tomorrow, completely quit production, i would buy an M11 Plus ESS and just use that. What you get with the Walkman, you can not get from any other company that exists. What you get from Shanling and A&K, you can get from almost every Chinese company that makes DAP.

Sure, you can cash in on the die hard audiophile but mostly these products are invented (and marketed) not for audiophiles but rich people who want to have it for the sake of having it. So of course they are not talked about that much because nobody owns them. Or the people who own it are not active here because most of them live in China and Japan.

A&K marketed the SP3000 not for its insane sound quality, but for using the same materials that are used in watches. When you DAP markets that he uses the same material than watches, the target group is clear imho

Sony: "We use copper to reduce the output impedance, look at our self developed capacitors and our self develop lead to give our self developed full digital amp the best sound quality possible with these giant LCs"

A&K: "We use a material that is shiny and looks good and is durable and also used in watches. Inside you find chips that cost 30$ on the open market but because we put them on an PCB, they are better. You don't believe us? Better do. If you pay 700$ extra, we coat it even in gold for you! The sound? I don't know, doesn't change, but look how shiny it is"

This made my day !
I agree with everything you say here btw.

 

[Vamp898]

The thing is, all these magical self developed components don't offer much real improvement, since off-the-shelf stuff is already very very good.

WM1AM2 is great, but so are many other DAPS and dac/amps around this price. For the sound only i'd rather take mojo2 for example

It all comes down to what Earphone/Headphone you use and what music.

Full Digital Amps can sound better objectively but worse subjectively. That is why Sony has implemented a lot of effects that simulate the sound of analog amps and/or even analog technologies.

Given the right IEM (All BA of course), the difference can grow bigger, if someone likes that difference is up to him. But Digital Amps do sound more correct (most people call it faster to not anger anyone because nobody wants an amp that sounds wrong).

In general, the bass quality increases while the subjectively felt bass quantity decreases slightly. A lot of bass quantity comes from harmonic distortion. If you use an Full Digital Amp with an All BA In-Ear, that is pretty much completely gone and the bass starts to sound "dry" and "soft".

With some (electronic) songs, you can even feel the separated pulses hitting your eardrum with very low bass where its just a constant humming with slower amps/earphones/headphones. And this, obviously, sounds very different and decreases the felt amount of bass significantly. But it is actually more correct. Its as close to perfection as it gets.