[kenman345]

  Hi!
I'm planning on selling my cd3000 and sa5000. Before I put those on sale, I would like your input on how I should price the headphones. Sometimes both of those Sony's go for crazy prices and sometimes a lot less. Because of that I'm having a hard time what a proper price for the headphones would be. I'm looking for the lowest decent price... Not trying to rip anyone off. Asking price or highest bidder would be the way I'm thinking.

CD3000: Comes with the case, no guides and other papers.  New earpads, old ones  included.  Cups, hinges, cable, adapter...all in very nice condition. Headband and the adjusting headband thingy are flaking. Not very badly but show their age alot.

SA5000: Original box, papers and the headphone stand. Headband, hinges cups in a good condition. No obvious crathces.  Earpads have lost the leather surface on the parts that connect to the cup. Outer parts in a good condition.  Cable has problems with the Y split. Has been resoldered and sleeved with electric tape. Works fine, if you don't bend the cable too much.  

SA5000: One driver, Working.

SA5000. Good condition headband.  Earpads have lost the leather surface on the parts that connect to the cup. Cups have been torn apart, missing the black paper things... Black grille, and the silver metal ring that has "mdr-sa5000" written on it. Also one of the baffles has been carved to fit another driver in. Because of that you can not use a sa-5000 driver with just the click in mechanism. You would need some glue or something.
Sa5000: Headphone stand

I was thinking $350 for CD3000 and $350 for Sa5000. I's it anywhere near a proper price? Maybe $100 for the driver? $70 for the other parts? Extra headphone stand I would propably throw in as an extra for some buyer.
I have no sales on ebay, so I might as well sell the headphones here. Here atleast I have 300+ posts for some reputation.
Headphones are in EU, Finland. Will ship worldwide.

YGPM

 

[GeoffW]

You should probably try ebay first. $350 for the CD3000 seems quite low if the drivers and enclosures are good. I'd buy it from you for that in a hurry, but I think you can get much more for it. 

 

[zhenya]

I think you would sell you CD3000's in an instant at that price. Pictures would help assess the condition a lot, but these are a classic headphone that is getting harder and harder to find. I personally think they are worth more like $600 in good condition, $400-500 in average condition, and possibly more in mint condition. I don't think there is anything new on the market at those price points that comes close to it.
 
Maybe I'm out of touch with the market - but a quick scan of the recent classifieds here shows that every set has sold that's been listed recently (unfortunately prices are not visible). I know I would not part with my near-mint set even at $600.

 

[Jackson9696]

These headphones are AMAZING! Just got a pair in and they sound better than my nighthawks, and I actually prefer them to the hd800 as well. They are supremely dynamic and fast sounding, probably the most 3d sounding headphones I've ever heard, and also the closest to a live performance that I've heard. Bar none, best closed headphones I've ever heard.

 

[GeoffW]

These headphones are AMAZING! Just got a pair in and they sound better than my nighthawks, and I actually prefer them to the hd800 as well. They are supremely dynamic and fast sounding, probably the most 3d sounding headphones I've ever heard, and also the closest to a live performance that I've heard. Bar none, best closed headphones I've ever heard.

 
Wait till you hear them with precisely tuned cables Then you'll know what these drivers are really capable of.  I prefer my modified CD3000 to the HD800 also, but I can see how others would prefer the HD800. That soundstage is to die for. The upgraded CD3000 isn't too far behind, though, especially for a closed headphone.

 

[Jackson9696]

I may look into getting them recabled, though I'll admit I've never been one to believe that a cable will noticeably improve the sound. The soundstage is fantastic for a closed phone, that may be what surprised me the most! Either that, or how beautiful the mids are. To die for!

 

[purk]

I personally think that the CD3000 is really a good stock headphones; however, it is not *great* unless the stock cable is upgraded to dual entries and you drive them balanced. I personally would not pay over $750 for a stock pair unless the earpads, headband, and head-strap are in good condition. Just my 2 cents and I have 5 pairs of the CD3000s over the years.

 

[GeoffW]

I personally think that the CD3000 is really a good stock headphones; however, it is not *great* unless the stock cable is upgraded to dual entries and you drive them balanced. I personally would not pay over $750 for a stock pair unless the earpads, headband, and head-strap are in good condition. Just my 2 cents and I have 5 pairs of the CD3000s over the years.

 
I agree with your sense of valuation, but I think the price is ultimately determined by supply and demand. Is the R10 really worth $6000? Only a few years ago it was going for $2500.

 

[GeoffW]

Here's a brief comparison of the sound quality of the stock CD3000, and my recabled CD3000:
 
Stock CD3000 (from memory)
    1. Intimate 3D presentation around your head
    2. Nice big sounstage, imaging
    3. Bass, mids, treble have separate personalities 
    4. Very good detail, good transparency
    5. Good bass, but a little flabby
    6. Euphonic sound
 
Recabled CD3000:
    1. 3D presentation, but on a grander scale, expansive sound, feels more powerful 
    2. Larger soundstage, scale feels larger and extends farther, very large for a closed headphone (Note: With the ear cups angled in even more, soundstage is linear in front of you, rather than wrapping around your head - this requires headband mods or a new headband, and more padding on the back of the ear pads. It can also reduce bass)
    3. Seamless integration throughout bass, mids, treble. One unified realistic sound.
    4. Excellent detail, transparent and lifelike, sometimes like being at the actual performance (with the Eidolic plug I sometimes get an astonishing snap-in-focus effect. Never heard this before)
    5. Tight bass, deeper extension, more detailed and realistic, seamless blend with mids, treble
    6. Even more euphonic and fun to listen to, addictive
 
The above comments are based on my memory of the stock sound, compared with the wiring I recommended in a previous post. The only thing that may change is the strand gauge - currently 4 x 24awg. I have tried using 2 x 20awg for an effective gauge of 17awg per conductor. This arrangement has a more bassy tone, a less flexible cable, less gold surface area, and takes at least 3 times longer to break in. Some might  like the slightly better bass, I prefer 4 x 24awg. Next week I will try 10 x 28awg for an effective gauge of 18awg per conductor. This arrangement will have more gold surface area per conductor than 4 x 24awg, so I'll get to hear if more gold really makes a difference. After that decision - no more experiments. I'll reassemble my cable.
 
I believe the sound quality improvement over stock is coming mostly from 1). the increase in the effective gauge size of the conductors (the stock wire is very thin), and 2.) the plug quality. I'm sure some improvements are also coming from the copper quality (OCC, 6N), gold plating, and the pure silver connections to the drivers. The contribution of the plug is not surprising when you consider that some of the best interconnects are made with expensive rca connectors from Furutech and WBT in the $150 to $300 price range.
 
That's about it. I believe this wiring is pretty close to optimal. I doubt there's anything else you can do wiring-wise to the CD3000 to bring out significantly better sound, at least not at a reasonable price. You can swap in a 1/4" plug, or an XLR connector if you have a balanced amp. Either way I recommend Eidolic connectors - the best I've tested, even better than the Furutech 3.5mm I also tested last week. Of couse, there are many other ways to improve the signal path  - better amp, source, etc. Whatever wire you choose, you should create at least one interconnect with the same wires used in the recabling. It will be very clear and perfectly matched to your new CD3000 (for the IC, don't skimp on the rca connectors). In fact, create the IC first to help you decide if you like the sound of the wire.
 
----------------------------------------------
 
Update on silver wire: I've been testing more silver wire in various forms, and found that silver is a different animal than I thought.  For years, silver-plated copper gave me enhanced detail over basic rolled-off copper, so I assumed that moving to pure silver would be another step up. Didn't happen. I tested more solid silver, better silver-plated copper, and Mundorf silver + 1%gold wire. For a CD3000 headphone cable, I couldn't live with any of them except silver-plated copper wire, and even that sounds thin and cold compared to gold-plated copper. The sound is smooth, but subconscious fatigue creeps in on anything approaching pure silver. I know there were great reviews in the past for the Silver Dragon + CD3000 combo, so maybe I'm too sensitive to silver. 
 
The above observations apply to silver used for a headphone cable. When I use it as an interconnect between dac and amp, there is no fatigue, so the amp must be doing something. When using silver as an IC, initially the sound was pleasant: very smooth and clear, no fatigue at all. But after more critical A/B listening, it becomes apparent that silver is actually smoothing over rough, noisy detail that was present in copper. For example, the satisfying gutsy sound of brass, cellos, and guitars comes out a bit smoothed, sanitized, and hermetically sealed -  pleasant enough to listen to, but not as intense and vivid as copper. As some audiophiles put it, silver does not have the "resonance" of copper. I have noticed that silver also seems to reduce soundstage depth somewhat, resulting in flat 2-dimensional imaging.  I have also noticed that If you use too much silver with other wire (i.e. alternate silver and copper strands), it will have a dominating tendency to smooth out the whole combination.
 
For these reasons, I'm staying away from silver as a main conductor, but I will still use it sparingly to interface with other components, and to fine tune the tone. I've discovered I like the sound of gold, but I hope I don't make the same mistake I made with silver and try to use it for everything.

 

[purk]

   
I agree with your sense of valuation, but I think the price is ultimately determined by supply and demand. Is the R10 really worth $6000? Only a few years ago it was going for $2500.

I posted that because someone contacted me out of blue couple of days ago wanting to see if I'm interested in bidding and continue raising a price on his pair of the CD3000.  I simply want others to know that there are additional works required to bring out the best from this headphones and the task involved isn't cheap unless you are DIY savvy.  A stock CD3000 is really good closed phones; however, I would not rate it as being as good as the a properly driven HD650 let alone the HD800.  I appreciate your take on the pricing issue as well as your sharing your thoughts on the headphones.  Yes, the market will definitely determine the fair market value on a used pair of CD3000.
 
Regarding the R10, in a way it isn't worth the $6000 but it also has several sonic qualities that can't be match even by the SR009 and HE90.  If you love the soundstage on your modded CD3000 now, the R10 is even better and timber is even more realistic short on the bass response.  There is no such thing as a perfect headphones but the R10 is very close to perfect short of its anemic bass output.

 

[GeoffW]

When the market gets thinner, you might see some crazy price swings. I've been offered thousands for my CD3000, but probably will never sell it. I really do enjoy it now, and can't easily replace it. After the wiring, I'll continue to improve the appearance of it to be a one-of-a-kind headphone, and eventually I need to take it to a good headphone meet. I really look forward to hearing the R10 someday, as well as the SR009 and HE90. 
 
The total cost in materials for my wiring upgrade is actually not that expensive: around $100 to $150, if you're willing to put in a decent amount of labor. Testing a lot of different materials IS expensive, though.

 

[GeoffW]

Ok, my testing is done, and my cable is reassembled (mostly). But this week was a revelation on several fronts. By continued testing I keep proving myself wrong - first with silver, then with gauge size, and last week with the 2 x 20awg cable. So last week's testing has changed three things:
 
1. The 2 x 20awg conductor sounds great
2. More gold sounds great.
3. Larger gauges sound great.
 
Last week, it seems I was too hasty in my assessment of the 2 x 20awg cable. It was actually sounding pretty spectacular before I removed it for 12 x 28awg. Apparently 2 x 20 takes much longer to break in than 4 x 24 or 12 x 28  - at least 5 days. The bassy tone-cast was gone, replaced by something rich and spacious, while the bass was still deep and tight when needed. These observations seem consistent with the consensus online that large gauge solid core sounds great. The main drawback of this arrangement (and it is serious) is the stiffness of the cable, which is much worse than 4-24 or 12-28. But if you can live with the stiffness, the sound quality was excellent when broken in.
 
The next test was with 12 x 28 at 17awg, and later I also added 2 x 24awg to the mix, for a total of 16awg. This is a large gauge, but with better teflon tubing I was able to fit it in the same wrap as my 18awg (between a tight 1/4" or loose 3/8"). 12 x 28awg is much more labor-intensive than the other cables. Getting the fine wires to cooperate can be a nightmare, with tangling and kinking. I ended up having to tie 6ft segments of wire between two posts, before inserting them as one into teflon tubing. Was it worth it? Yes! The gold plating is not a gimmick. 12 x 28 has more gold surface area, and I heard it. It's the sound I've been looking for: big stage, fine detail, sweet tone, gentle, and real. Gold sounds natural - lifelike detail without an artificially boosted treble. Gold also gets the tonal detail (timbre) of each instrument dead-on. It used to be that strings would sound screetchy or synthetic sometimes. Now everything sounds exactly how it should - like you are there.  On a side note, gold-plating probably also helps protect the underlying copper from oxidation over time. The thin, transparent enamel coating also helps (note that all these wires are practically litz, due to the enamel covering).

So I ended up with an effective 16awg cable, which is larger than I wanted. But contrary to my previous tests, the larger gauges do indeed sound better. As with my speakers, the sound quality continues to improve at larger and larger wire gauges, with diminishing returns. Break-in is the key. Previously, I was A/B testing the larger gauges without breaking them in. You won't hear much difference if you just A/B with a thicker new wire for a minute, but it's easy to notice after listening for longer periods on broken-in wire. The larger gauge sounds fuller and richer, has a bigger soundstage and sense of space, and more authoritative, better-controlled bass. At 16awg per conductor, the soundstage on the CD3000 is now about as large as I remember the HD800, maybe even slightly larger. In this larger space, sound images are also larger, with more detail per image. What I used to hear as a single orchestral brass section is now a patch of 5 or 6 separate instruments. I definitely prefer it, but it takes some time adjusting to the new scale. 16awg is my limit, though. No doubt 14awg will sound even slightly better, but the price will be a much thicker cable that looks and feels like a fat power cord.
 
With the natural detail of gold, and the better sound quality of the larger gauge, this week has been another big step toward transparency. With this update, I have more than a headphone. It's a refined musical instrument and plays like one. The sound is incredible. It's light years beyond the stock CD3000. All because of a micro-thin cable matched up with world class drivers. Those drivers can do so much more.
 
Next up are some mods to my headband, and the dreaded leatherwork. But first, I'm just gonna lay back and listen for a while. If you want to duplicate my wiring, here is the magic golden cable again, slightly modified:

Connector: Eidolic headphone connector 3.5mm gold-plated  (I also have the 6.3mm now in for testing, and looking at XLR options)
 
Connector Leads: (3) 2.5 inch leads from the connector, each (4 x 24awg) + (7 x 28awg) gold-plated copper wire, effective 16awg (not an easy fit in 3.5mm, but doable)

Cable L+R (+): 2 x 6ft of (2 x 24awg) + (12 x 28awg) gold plated copper wire, effective 16awg 

Cable Ground (-): 2 x 6ft of (5 x 24awg) + (4 x 28awg) gold plated copper wire, effective 16awg 

Driver Leads: (4) 4 inch leads of 16awg solid silver (this is what I may have, not what I have yet. I'm reluctant to resolder the drivers. Yes, I will be drilling another hole for 2 exits, but leave most of the wiring intact incase I want to return).

 

[kenman345]

  Ok, my testing is done, and my cable is reassembled (mostly). But this week was a revelation on several fronts. By continued testing I keep proving myself wrong - first with silver, then with gauge size, and last week with the 2 x 20awg cable. So last week's testing has changed three things:
 
1. The 2 x 20awg conductor sounds great
2. More gold sounds great.
3. Larger gauges sound great.
 
Last week, it seems I was too hasty in my assessment of the 2 x 20awg cable. It was actually sounding pretty spectacular before I removed it for 12 x 28awg. Apparently 2 x 20 takes much longer to break in than 4 x 24 or 12 x 28  - at least 5 days. The bassy tone-cast was gone, replaced by something rich and spacious, while the bass was still deep and tight when needed. These observations seem consistent with the consensus online that large gauge solid core sounds great. The main drawback of this arrangement (and it is serious) is the stiffness of the cable, which is much worse than 4-24 or 12-28. But if you can live with the stiffness, the sound quality was excellent when broken in.
 
The next test was with 12 x 28 at 17awg, and later I also added 2 x 24awg to the mix, for a total of 16awg. This is a large gauge, but with better teflon tubing I was able to fit it in the same wrap as my 18awg (between a tight 1/4" or loose 3/8"). 12 x 28awg is much more labor-intensive than the other cables. Getting the fine wires to cooperate can be a nightmare, with tangling and kinking. I ended up having to tie 6ft segments of wire between two posts, before inserting them as one into teflon tubing. Was it worth it? Yes! The gold plating is not a gimmick. 12 x 28 has more gold surface area, and I heard it. It's the sound I've been looking for: big stage, fine detail, sweet tone, gentle, and real. Gold sounds natural - lifelike detail without an artificially boosted treble. Gold also gets the tonal detail (timbre) of each instrument dead-on. It used to be that strings would sound screetchy or synthetic sometimes. Now everything sounds exactly how it should - like you are there.  On a side note, gold-plating probably also helps protect the underlying copper from oxidation over time. The thin, transparent enamel coating also helps (note that all these wires are practically litz, due to the enamel covering).

So I ended up with an effective 16awg cable, which is larger than I wanted. But contrary to my previous tests, the larger gauges do indeed sound better. As with my speakers, the sound quality continues to improve at larger and larger wire gauges, with diminishing returns. Break-in is the key. Previously, I was A/B testing the larger gauges without breaking them in. You won't hear much difference if you just A/B with a thicker new wire for a minute, but it's easy to notice after listening for longer periods on broken-in wire. The larger gauge sounds fuller and richer, has a bigger soundstage and sense of space, and more authoritative, better-controlled bass. At 16awg per conductor, the soundstage on the CD3000 is now about as large as I remember the HD800, maybe even slightly larger. In this larger space, sound images are also larger, with more detail per image. What I used to hear as a single orchestral brass section is now a patch of 5 or 6 separate instruments. I definitely prefer it, but it takes some time adjusting to the new scale. 16awg is my limit, though. No doubt 14awg will sound even slightly better, but the price will be a much thicker cable that looks and feels like a fat power cord.
 
With the natural detail of gold, and the better sound quality of the larger gauge, this week has been another big step toward transparency. With this update, I have more than a headphone. It's a refined musical instrument and plays like one. The sound is incredible. It's light years beyond the stock CD3000. All because of a micro-thin cable matched up with world class drivers. Those drivers can do so much more.
 
Next up are some mods to my headband, and the dreaded leatherwork. But first, I'm just gonna lay back and listen for a while. If you want to duplicate my wiring, here is the magic golden cable again, slightly modified:

Connector: Eidolic headphone connector 3.5mm gold-plated  (I also have the 6.3mm now in for testing, and looking at XLR options)
 
Connector Leads: (3) 2.5 inch leads from the connector, each (4 x 24awg) + (7 x 28awg) gold-plated copper wire, effective 16awg (not an easy fit in 3.5mm, but doable)

Cable L+R (+): 2 x 6ft of (2 x 24awg) + (12 x 28awg) gold plated copper wire, effective 16awg 

Cable Ground (-): 2 x 6ft of (5 x 24awg) + (4 x 28awg) gold plated copper wire, effective 16awg 

Driver Leads: (4) 4 inch leads of 16awg solid silver (this is what I may have, not what I have yet. I'm reluctant to resolder the drivers. Yes, I will be drilling another hole for 2 exits, but leave most of the wiring intact incase I want to return).

I talked to Dave at http://dragonleather.net/ to handle my leatherwork. He's good and it wasnt too expensive to have it done right. 

 

[GeoffW]

  I talked to Dave at http://dragonleather.net/ to handle my leatherwork. He's good and it wasnt too expensive to have it done right. 

Thanks! His stuff looks good, but he seems pretty busy, at 20 emails a day(?). I've already ordered most of the lambskin, which you can get on ebay for $5 to $50 for a patch, so I'll give it try by myself first. I've never done leatherwork, so I'm sure I'll mess up a few times. I'm willing to learn, or at least try. I've already done a few earpads in cloth - my mother, off all people, immediately grasped its essential tricks and taught me, so that was a big help. If it all becomes too much for me, I'll try Dave - thanks again.

 

[GeoffW]

Here's something which may be interesting: lately, I've been playing around a bit with the acoustics of the CD3000. The material I'm using is brass foil, which I haven't seen tried before. Brass has the right rigidity for favorable acoustics, which is why it is used for horns, and why it may be adding some pleasing coloration to my headphone. I lined the inside of the cylinder where the driver is seated with brass foil (both inside and outside the enclosure), and it seems to result in a punchier, clearer, more contrasty sound. It sounds good to my ears. Like I was editing a photo and turning up the saturation a notch - the sound seems somewhat richer and more saturated.  I need to experiment with different placement of the foil. I have also replaced the little screws that hold in the earcups with brass screws and this seems to have made a positive difference as well, although it may be within the placebo effect. The brass foil may be adding additional acoustic reflection inside the earcups, but I'm not hearing it. The foam donuts that came with CD3000 are probably cleaning it up. Incidentally, those foam pieces look as new as the day I bought the headphone. My headphones have been through hell but that foam hasn't rotted, which is good because the CD3000 is blurry without them.

I have not yet experimented with tonewoods, or "woody" earcups, and I've read conflicting reports about them on head fi. Has anyone actually tried them? Is it worth having woodies specially made, apart from looks? I would think they'd be heavier.
 
(EDIT: Oops, forgot to mention: if you do fool around with brass foil, be very careful not to let any sharp edges puncture the driver, otherwise game over