[Dark_wizzie]

   
Interesting point.  I noticed Schiit Audio in particular are very cautious about what they claim their products do.  Most of their products are DACs and amps, and have measurable stats and that's fine, but all they are willing to claim about their cables is "These are nice, high-quality cables, with solid reliable connectors.  That's it."  And for their USB 'Decrapifier' which cleans up the USB signal coming from your computer they write "But some listeners say Wyrd improves the sound of their system. We’re not going to make any such claims."
 
Maybe they noticed how Red Bull recently lost a lawsuit and had to pay $13,000,000 in compensation because Red Bull does not in fact 'give you wings'.
 
I wonder if one day some rich lawyer will spend a bucketload of money on a power cord and find that it' doesn't do anything then file a lawsuit against the cable manufacturer.  I'm sure I have seen companies claim their power cables improve sound before.  Maybe I wasn't reading the descriptions carefully enough to notice that they've thrown in all the buzzwords audiophiles want to hear, but their descriptions don't actually promise anything.

Red Bull actually lost such a lawsuit? That is HILARIOUS. 

 Anyways, I always found it funny that some audiophiles claim to hear an improvement... and sometimes a sizable one at that... for a product which the designers didn't believe would change or improve sound quality. Steve Eddy makes cables yet doesn't believe his cables make the sound even better, right? So what must be going through his head when he reads such comments? I read the FAQ for the Schiit Ragnorok and in there basically it specifically pointed out that they are NOT claiming there to be an audible improvement in sound quality, instead comparing the amp to a Timex vs a Rolex (and some car analogy that went over my head). I think that's pretty cool of them to be that honest.

 

[swannie007]

  You feeling ok swannie?
 
 
Hold on, even if this thing was just a cap, isn't that a bad thing?  From memory I think Ray Sameuls makes a point of mentioning that his designs have NO capacitors in the signal path...

Yea, I'm just so damned excited by this thing I could just crap! I bet they sell a boatload to those folks who bought the Pono players!

 

[castleofargh]

 

 
of course they aren't lying. they are not idiots.
in fact the double language of the hot page was the very first thing that made me suspicious. they take good care to not talk about anything real with a clear definition, all the improvements are indeed on a subjective domain so when people complain about it, they can juggle with the definition of such subjective words and not risk any legal pursuit.
it's like what you can get from some shameless cable makers who will tell you all about how much more air, soundstage, and natural you can get. none of those words meaning anything.
because if they were to say you'll get a 5db improvement in crosstalk, +0.2db in trebles at 18khz, and lower phase shift, they would be accountable for those claims.
it's marketing pure and simple with nothing to fear is you don't deliver.

 
Interesting point.  I noticed Schiit Audio in particular are very cautious about what they claim their products do.  Most of their products are DACs and amps, and have measurable stats and that's fine, but all they are willing to claim about their cables is "These are nice, high-quality cables, with solid reliable connectors.  That's it."  And for their USB 'Decrapifier' which cleans up the USB signal coming from your computer they write "But some listeners say Wyrd improves the sound of their system. We’re not going to make any such claims."
 
Maybe they noticed how Red Bull recently lost a lawsuit and had to pay $13,000,000 in compensation because Red Bull does not in fact 'give you wings'.
 
I wonder if one day some rich lawyer will spend a bucketload of money on a power cord and find that it' doesn't do anything then file a lawsuit against the cable manufacturer.  I'm sure I have seen companies claim their power cables improve sound before.  Maybe I wasn't reading the descriptions carefully enough to notice that they've thrown in all the buzzwords audiophiles want to hear, but their descriptions don't actually promise anything.

agreed, strange claims for the wyrd were all made by headfiers, none by shiit.
 
 
I wonder for redbull if somebody came and told them they couldn't say it was a hoax before they tried it themselves, like we were told here? I guess the compensation is that high to account for all those who died trying to fly during the trial.

 

[drez]

I think the main difference is that you can easily prove that Red Bull does not give you wings. Wings are big flappy things birds have, we all understand what they are and how to determine whether or not they exist.

As was alluded to earlier in the thread, imaging soundstage etc are all subjective terms which sound scientists have trouble describing let alone measuring. There are no established means to measure (for example) soundstage, therefore no established means to disprove a claim relating to soundstage. Therefore you cannot sue a company for not providing soundstage, and cannot defend yourself if you claim they are crooks for selling cables without soundstage etc.

 

[bigshot]

Soundstage as it exists in recorded music is a function of phase and frequency response, both of which are measurable. It is a very specific term, not vague at all. It is just used incorrectly too often by people who don't really know what it is and how it is created.

 

[mulder01]

So, sound science forum people, I know we have HOT measurements pending, but I'm just working on the assumption that it will not enhance soundstage, so can I ask your opinions on weather AMPS can make a difference in soundstage?  If the information is in the recording, is there any way this can be enhanced by an amplifier?  A lot of people claim to hear differences in soundstage switching between gear which I'd like to believe but haven't particularly noticed myself.  Having said that, I don't get to try a big range of stuff.
 
I own a Violectric v281 amp and on that thread a decent chunk of people claim to notice a big difference in soundstage between the balanced and single ended outputs.  I actually haven't tried it, only due to the fact that I have a single ended adapter away in a box and I'd have to get it out...  Just interested to know from a scientific point of view if there is any truth to anything being able to improve soundstage besides creating it in the recording process.  Or does a more detailed soundstage just come hand in hand with generally more detailed sound?

 

[drez]

Soundstage as it exists in recorded music is a function of phase and frequency response, both of which are measurable. It is a very specific term, not vague at all. It is just used incorrectly too often by people who don't really know what it is and how it is created.

Interesting. I Always wondered if you make the signal more out of phase, this might make the soundstage appear larger?

 

[mulder01]

It would seem like that would shift the soundstage to one side?  If you had a delay to the right headphone, the soundstage would still have the same presentation, but off to the left a bit, correct?

 

[Steve Eddy]

Soundstage as it exists in recorded music is a function of phase and frequency response...

se

 

[marcswede]

I made my own HOTish adapter yesterday. Left and right channel untouched and a 3F ultracapacitor in parallel with ground.

 

[GearMe]

Soundstage as it exists in recorded music is a function of phase and frequency response, both of which are measurable. It is a very specific term, not vague at all.

se

No variability in perceived sound stage due to headphone design, an individual's hearing capabilities, or how their brain interprets the signals sent from their ears?

 

[mikeaj]

  So, sound science forum people, I know we have HOT measurements pending, but I'm just working on the assumption that it will not enhance soundstage, so can I ask your opinions on weather AMPS can make a difference in soundstage?  If the information is in the recording, is there any way this can be enhanced by an amplifier?  A lot of people claim to hear differences in soundstage switching between gear which I'd like to believe but haven't particularly noticed myself.  Having said that, I don't get to try a big range of stuff.
 
I own a Violectric v281 amp and on that thread a decent chunk of people claim to notice a big difference in soundstage between the balanced and single ended outputs.  I actually haven't tried it, only due to the fact that I have a single ended adapter away in a box and I'd have to get it out...  Just interested to know from a scientific point of view if there is any truth to anything being able to improve soundstage besides creating it in the recording process.  Or does a more detailed soundstage just come hand in hand with generally more detailed sound?

 
There are some things the amp could do that may impact how soundstage is perceived but that would involve intentional deviations that would result in different things for different headphones. Definitely one thing it could do would be to have some series resistance on the ground return, for example, thus introducing crosstalk.
 
In any case, some signal processing is a much more powerful tool if some differences are desired. I mean, the soundstage you get out of playback on speakers on recordings designed to be played back on speakers is a constructed illusion (sometimes a very good one), anyway. And the soundstage you get with headphones playing those same recordings back is definitely wrong in the sense that it doesn't at all match what you'd get with speakers and generally never sounds like anything one would hear in the audience or even on stage. I mean to say that some compensation and adjusting the signal is justified if it sounds better to you, and there are good reasons why this may be the case too. But I wouldn't think to trying different amps to achieve these goals.
 
That said, especially with a two-channel source, there's not much to work with. If something's panned to the left and something else to the right, it's not like you can adjust those positions without affecting other sounds. The mix is set. Generally the main thing that can be done is to narrow (and to some degree and maybe less success, widen) the soundstage that's set.

 

[Billheiser]

Don't forget the other side of the picture. Better amplification gives better soundstage - it doesn't create stuff that isn't there but lets all of the signal through with less damage so you get more of what has been recorded.

 

[bigshot]

  So, sound science forum people, I know we have HOT measurements pending, but I'm just working on the assumption that it will not enhance soundstage, so can I ask your opinions on weather AMPS can make a difference in soundstage?

 
Yes, soundstage can be degraded by crosstalk (primary phase issues) and frequency response (masking of secondary depth cues). Neither of these are really an issue in modern solid state amps though. Soundstage can also be enhanced through DSPs built into AV amps.

 

[bigshot]

Interesting. I Always wondered if you make the signal more out of phase, this might make the soundstage appear larger?

 
That is the basic idea in a lot of DSPs. I use one called "Stereo to 5.1" which is built into my Yamaha AV amp. It does two things, it filters by frequency and phase to separate out a true center and sub channel. And it adjusts the phase between all five speakers to create a synthetic sound field between them. The effect increases the size of the recorded soundstage by double, while still maintaining precise instrument placement within the sound stage.