Sold my ipod classic and starting over.. Recommendation for DAP? DAP+AMP? Smartphone+DAC/AMP?
Sep 29, 2014 at 2:06 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 12

imackler

Headphoneus Supremus
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In a fit of madness, I sold my ipod classic for... lots of reasons. It was pristine and working awesome, but I thought it looked like a good time to move away from a hard drive dap that needed an external amp. Kind of wishing I hadn't now... Anways, I was looking at either the Fiio X3 or X5, but I'm disappointed hearing the criticism regarding the amp sections of both of those. Its also really weird to hear reports of different firmwares changing sound signatures. 
 
I'm also in the market for a new smartphone (maybe one with lots of storage), so an external dac may be an option, too. Can you help? I'm probably looking at $300-400 for the audio portion of it, including sd card, if needed. Maybe my preference now is smartphone and external dac/amp combo?
 
If you were just starting on a budget (and I know that's relative), what would you do? Is their a budget smartphone (with a sd slot) + dac combo you'd recommend? Should I just shut up, get a X3 and call it a day? Or X3 and amp? Or X1 and amp? (Don't worry about file format.)  
 
Portable is realistically only 30% of my total listening. I'm only trying to run the W40, ER4s, MDR-V6 and HD558 (around the house). (My office set up is a simple E07K/E09K/HD600.) If I get a great dac, I might take the E07K out of the system. 
 
Thanks! 
 
Sep 29, 2014 at 2:48 PM Post #2 of 12
  In a fit of madness, I sold my iPod classic for... lots of reasons. It was pristine and working awesome, but I thought it looked like a good time to move away from a hard drive dap that needed an external amp. Kind of wishing I hadn't now... Anways, I was looking at either the Fiio X3 or X5, but I'm disappointed hearing the criticism regarding the amp sections of both of those. Its also really weird to hear reports of different firmwares changing sound signatures. 
I'm also in the market for a new smartphone (maybe one with lots of storage), so an external dac may be an option, too. Can you help? I'm probably looking at $300-400 for the audio portion of it, including sd card, if needed. Maybe my preference now is smartphone and external dac/amp combo?
If you were just starting on a budget (and I know that's relative), what would you do? Is their a budget smartphone (with a sd slot) + dac combo you'd recommend? Should I just shut up, get a X3 and call it a day? Or X3 and amp? Or X1 and amp? (Don't worry about file format.)  
Portable is realistically only 30% of my total listening. I'm only trying to run the W40, ER4s, MDR-V6 and HD558 (around the house). (My office set up is a simple E07K/E09K/HD600.) If I get a great dac, I might take the E07K out of the system. 
Thanks! 

 
I would say to get the FiiO X3 or X1 and use low impedance headphones with it, so you will not need to buy a separate amp or dac/amp.
I've been really enjoying my Audio Technica ATH-ESW9 (there is also the ATH-ESW9A model).
 
Sep 29, 2014 at 2:58 PM Post #3 of 12
I would buy the phone you want, making sure that the model you choose has some method for digital out. At that point there are a ton of portable dac's/amps to choose from, and you get the flexibility to choose both the phone you want and the dac/amp you want and can update them independently.
 
Sep 29, 2014 at 8:17 PM Post #4 of 12
  In a fit of madness, I sold my ipod classic for... lots of reasons. It was pristine and working awesome, but I thought it looked like a good time to move away from a hard drive dap that needed an external amp. Kind of wishing I hadn't now... Anways, I was looking at either the Fiio X3 or X5, but I'm disappointed hearing the criticism regarding the amp sections of both of those. Its also really weird to hear reports of different firmwares changing sound signatures. 
 
I'm also in the market for a new smartphone (maybe one with lots of storage), so an external dac may be an option, too. Can you help? I'm probably looking at $300-400 for the audio portion of it, including sd card, if needed. Maybe my preference now is smartphone and external dac/amp combo?
 
If you were just starting on a budget (and I know that's relative), what would you do? Is their a budget smartphone (with a sd slot) + dac combo you'd recommend? Should I just shut up, get a X3 and call it a day? Or X3 and amp? Or X1 and amp? (Don't worry about file format.)  
 
Portable is realistically only 30% of my total listening. I'm only trying to run the W40, ER4s, MDR-V6 and HD558 (around the house). (My office set up is a simple E07K/E09K/HD600.) If I get a great dac, I might take the E07K out of the system. 
 
Thanks! 

Funny I just sold my ipod 5th gen touch and could not be happier.  My HRT microstreamer has never sounded as good as it does now with an android phone (Moto X) .  Nice step up from the ipod and the touch was a big step up form any of the hard drive ipods I had.
 
I think a good used Sammy S4 and the HRT would be a good phone dac, amp combo.  Or you could do a cheap tablet.  I am going to be doing that for home bedside use.  Researched the crap out of new models and the Lenovo Tab S8 looks to be a nice choice for me at $199.  I'll be buying it as soon as they release it.  Good luck in your search.
 
Sep 29, 2014 at 11:00 PM Post #5 of 12
  In a fit of madness, I sold my ipod classic for... lots of reasons. It was pristine and working awesome, but I thought it looked like a good time to move away from a hard drive dap that needed an external amp. Kind of wishing I hadn't now... Anways, I was looking at either the Fiio X3 or X5, but I'm disappointed hearing the criticism regarding the amp sections of both of those. Its also really weird to hear reports of different firmwares changing sound signatures. 

 
What's wrong with the amps on those? They're still a heck of a lot better than CMOYs. I had the X3 in a crowded showroom and the Q701's bass was still audible (not to mention tight but had a deep response) - everything else was, up to that point, woudl have been surprising for me for $200 (considering the old D4 Mamba and the previous D2 both had trouble driving the HD600 and K701). Also if you're using an IEM even an iPhone can do well enough considering their efficiency (and the flat response on the iPhone - which is a lot better than my T-Mobile S3, which sounds a bit dark).
 
If you're using full-size headphones I suggest low impedance cans that don't need a lot of current (high efficiency, impedance stays near nominal during dynamic peaks, etc). Or maybe skip the portable player if the system is mostly for your home, then use a dedicated music server; or a smartphone that can function as a music server with a DAC(+HPamp) at home and then fairly efficient IEMs on the go.
 
I start and go through my day with this....

 
...then I come home to this - dock the phone, feed the cat, hang out with the cat on our bar, take a shower, then listen before sleeping.

 
Sep 30, 2014 at 12:01 AM Post #6 of 12
FIrst of all, thank you so much for all the kind help and taking the time to respond! Each of you make me want to follow your advice! Responses below, fwiw.
 
Quote:
   
I would say to get the FiiO X3 or X1 and use low impedance headphones with it, so you will not need to buy a separate amp or dac/amp.
I've been really enjoying my Audio Technica ATH-ESW9 (there is also the ATH-ESW9A model).

 
Yeah, this is definitely the easiest solution. I'm concerned the X3 will be too dark, but I haven't heard one yet. Do you you like the X3 w/ the HD558? I just picked up a pair for casual around the house listening... On the other hand, the X3 would go great with the ER4S. 
 
  I would buy the phone you want, making sure that the model you choose has some method for digital out. At that point there are a ton of portable dac's/amps to choose from, and you get the flexibility to choose both the phone you want and the dac/amp you want and can update them independently.

 
I'm really tempted by this option. Unfortunately, I'm looking for an off contract, budget phone that could handle at least 64gb sd card and has digital out. They're out there, but the options are limited on a budget. On the other hand, there are sooo many really good dac/amps now that it does seem like a really good solution. If I get a portable dac/amp, I could use it with my laptop, tablet, etc. too (provided there is a digital out). 
 
  Funny I just sold my ipod 5th gen touch and could not be happier.  My HRT microstreamer has never sounded as good as it does now with an android phone (Moto X) .  Nice step up from the ipod and the touch was a big step up form any of the hard drive ipods I had.
 
I think a good used Sammy S4 and the HRT would be a good phone dac, amp combo.  Or you could do a cheap tablet.  I am going to be doing that for home bedside use.  Researched the crap out of new models and the Lenovo Tab S8 looks to be a nice choice for me at $199.  I'll be buying it as soon as they release it.  Good luck in your search.

 
Great to hear you like the microstreamer for this kind of purpose! So glad to hear it was an improvement over ipods;  I was really regrettin my decision. I'm kind of more in the Moto G budget, but I read that it has a digital out. I have started looking at used Samsung phones.. I really haven't considered a tablet but I have a Nexus 7, though I'd need one that has a SD slot. Do you know if the Tab S8 will have a digital out? Personally, I'd love to find a tablet that has a user-replaceable batter with a SD slot; that would seem to be the best of both worlds. Its one of the things I like about the Samsung phones. 
 
   
What's wrong with the amps on those? They're still a heck of a lot better than CMOYs. I had the X3 in a crowded showroom and the Q701's bass was still audible (not to mention tight but had a deep response) - everything else was, up to that point, woudl have been surprising for me for $200 (considering the old D4 Mamba and the previous D2 both had trouble driving the HD600 and K701). Also if you're using an IEM even an iPhone can do well enough considering their efficiency (and the flat response on the iPhone - which is a lot better than my T-Mobile S3, which sounds a bit dark).
 
If you're using full-size headphones I suggest low impedance cans that don't need a lot of current (high efficiency, impedance stays near nominal during dynamic peaks, etc). Or maybe skip the portable player if the system is mostly for your home, then use a dedicated music server; or a smartphone that can function as a music server with a DAC(+HPamp) at home and then fairly efficient IEMs on the go.
 

 
I haven't heard either the X1 or X3; I've only read some criticize the amp as the weakest part of overall excellent daps and not up to the level of the dac's potential. I see lot of amps strapped to them which seems to defeat a little of the purpose. Unfortunately, I have a soft-spot for the ER4S, which at 100 ohms, requires more of the juice of the X3 than the ipod, though it isn't horrible straight out of an ipod. 
 
My at home headphones are the HD558 which shouldn't be too hard to drive, but realistically far more of my listneing will be either on the ER4S or W40. Just got a great deal on the W40, though not sure I'll be keeping them. The W4 always sounded a little muddy in the mid-bass though it is technically brilliant. But the W40 is fairly efficient. I do like your idea of maybe just getting a great sounding smartphone. Or honestly, for 30% of my listening, even really decent woudl be ok. Maybe I should just look for a great sounding smartphone... 
 
Sep 30, 2014 at 12:19 AM Post #8 of 12
  Yeah, this is definitely the easiest solution. I'm concerned the X3 will be too dark, but I haven't heard one yet. Do you you like the X3 w/ the HD558? I just picked up a pair for casual around the house listening... On the other hand, the X3 would go great with the ER4S. 

 
I was able to test a early-production FiiO X1 and to me the sound quality was fine, did not feel the sound was too dark.
The X1 even drove my 250-Ohm Beyerdynamic headphones, so the 50-Ohm HD558 should be no problem.
 
Right now you can get an X3 for $169
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/996716-REG/fiio_x_3_x3_music_player.html
 
Sep 30, 2014 at 10:58 AM Post #9 of 12
The Moto G unfortunately does not have an SD slot (my son loves his)  but is a great phone and affordable.  As for the Lenovo Tab S, yes it has a usb out and should support digital out, I believe the predecessor did.  I'll let you know in a few weeks.  And yes it does have an SD slot to support up to 64GB cards.
 
Sep 30, 2014 at 11:09 AM Post #10 of 12
Before I decided to focus on a full-fledged desktop dream system, I was going to get the DX90.
 
You said portable use is only around 30%, so perhaps you should reconsider your priorities.
 
Sep 30, 2014 at 11:32 AM Post #11 of 12
I went full circle. I was using an iPhone for out and about and a classic with cypher solo for flexible home use. Anyhow, bought an AK100 and tried a ZX1 but now sold both and back to using classic with HP-P1 and iPhone with A200P. It was just too much agro managing multiple devices than just keeping to Apple iTunes devices instead. For me, the ease of Apple and ITunes saves me remembering what device I have copied any new music onto.
Guess I'm saying to bear in mind the hassle I found in trying other DAPs.
Cheers
 
Sep 30, 2014 at 12:19 PM Post #12 of 12
 
I haven't heard either the X1 or X3; I've only read some criticize the amp as the weakest part of overall excellent daps and not up to the level of the dac's potential. I see lot of amps strapped to them which seems to defeat a little of the purpose. Unfortunately, I have a soft-spot for the ER4S, which at 100 ohms, requires more of the juice of the X3 than the ipod, though it isn't horrible straight out of an ipod. 

 
Honestly I myself don't understand why people even bother with the extra bulk strapping an amp to any of these DAPs, save for those who hook them up to really hard to drive headphones, and personally if I would use such headphones anyway why not just use a desktop DAC-HPamp with a bigger power supply. That said for someone on a limited budget I'd recommend the X3 (and just live with the buttons instead of a control wheel or touchscreen) and the Q701 - not bad for well under $500.

Honestly, for all I know maybe the amps some use aren't transparent and color the sound with more bass, or for some reason their ears just need the music a lot louder (not that the X3 et al can't get a bunch of headphones loud enough, it's just that of course compared to a dedicated amp it may have a lot more distortion at that volume level).
 
 
My at home headphones are the HD558 which shouldn't be too hard to drive, but realistically far more of my listneing will be either on the ER4S or W40. Just got a great deal on the W40, though not sure I'll be keeping them. The W4 always sounded a little muddy in the mid-bass though it is technically brilliant. But the W40 is fairly efficient. I do like your idea of maybe just getting a great sounding smartphone. Or honestly, for 30% of my listening, even really decent woudl be ok. Maybe I should just look for a great sounding smartphone... 

 
Pending reviews, why not just get the X1? I don't see how it can't drive the W40. My Ibasso D-Zero drives the older Westones (UM3X, W4) just fine, and again pending reviews I can't otherwise imagine why the X1 won't be able to do well on those, unless the mention of added bass response through its analog output stage causes bloat in the bass. Note that the X3 was known as "warm" according to reviews, but when I tried it, it was still a lot clearer in the treble and cleaner in the bass than my S3, which every objectivist will absolutely always argue as "flat" adn that absolutely no IEM should be any problem for any smartphone to drive.
 

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