[phoenixdogfan]

I have a question for the community: Is anyone using the Direct Bass feature of the A16? As I understand it, you can utilize bass management to set corner frequencies for low pass cut off on your virtual speakers and use a captured sub from a Prir, or use a LFE channel again for a virtual sub from a PRIR, or you can just use Direct Bass, which supplies the bass to your left and right headphone ear cups with no sub needed.

I'm thinking that in terms of bass quality, it should not make any difference whatsover below 80 hz whether the bass comes from a vitual speaker (sub or any other speaker) or whether it's directly rendered b/c the bass will be omnidirectional in any case.

The question then becomes one of just how well the Direct Bass feature works: Does it work well enough that you could take a Prir with a bunch of minimonitors that punk out around 50hz or so (looking at you LS 50s) and just use Direct Bass to fill in with bass performance no different from the largest most ambitious IRS level of megasystems (assuming your phones can put out that bass); or is Direct Bass just a limited feature that offers a mediocre substitute for a PRIR of a big boy system?

Obviously, this will depend on how well the DB feature works in theory, vs how well it is currently being executed by the A16 at this stage of its firmware development. I also understand this feature was available on the A8, so those users may want to chime in with their experience of using it as well.

 

[sander99]

I'm thinking that in terms of bass quality, it should not make any difference whatsover below 80 hz whether the bass comes from a vitual speaker (sub or any other speaker) or whether it's directly rendered b/c the bass will be omnidirectional in any case.

Only with respect to localization of the lowest frequencies: indeed that doesn't make a difference. But for overall bass quality:
On the contrary: bass from virtual speakers will be influenced by the room where the real speakers were measured. Standing waves (room modes), peaks, nulls (if measured in a bad spot in the room). Not so much when the PRIR was made in a very well treated room of course, but I still expect a difference even then. Direct bass will be completely free of any of that. That's why in the past I was very enthusiastic about the idea of direct bass, but...

... actually I wanted to share one related important aspect of my experience with the borrowed A16 I had in my home, something I hadn't really noticed yet during my short demo in Munnich.
One very striking aspect of listening to my virtual speakers (floorstanders with strong and deep bass) on the A16 was that the bass "experience" is totally different from listening to normal headphones. I once wrote in this thread that I always felt like something was missing in the bass when listening to headphones. At that time I thought it must be the tactile element. I have now dropped that thought almost completely. I think I now know what was missing most of all: the room! The "cursed" room modes, the bass "ringing" of the room. I actually love it! And the A16 reproduces all that perfectly, and it feels so much more natural than standard headphone bass. Of course ideally it should not be too much, and preferably without coloration, but some reverb (evenly distributed over the frequency spectrum)(also) in the bass really seems to be essential for my enjoyment.
My brain even played some funny tricks on me while listening to the A16: sometimes I could swear I felt the floor vibrating with the music, although that would have been impossible. (And no, in reality my floor doesn't even vibrate with the real speakers, or not that I ever noticed.) Some weird kind of unconscious expectation bias.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Only with respect to localization of the lowest frequencies: indeed that doesn't make a difference. But for overall bass quality:
On the contrary: bass from virtual speakers will be influenced by the room where the real speakers were measured. Standing waves (room modes), peaks, nulls (if measured in a bad spot in the room). Not so much when the PRIR was made in a very well treated room of course, but I still expect a difference even then. Direct bass will be completely free of any of that. That's why in the past I was very enthusiastic about the idea of direct bass, but...

... actually I wanted to share one related important aspect of my experience with the borrowed A16 I had in my home, something I hadn't really noticed yet during my short demo in Munnich.
One very striking aspect of listening to my virtual speakers (floorstanders with strong and deep bass) on the A16 was that the bass "experience" is totally different from listening to normal headphones. I once wrote in this thread that I always felt like something was missing in the bass when listening to headphones. At that time I thought it must be the tactile element. I have now dropped that thought almost completely. I think I now know what was missing most of all: the room! The "cursed" room modes, the bass "ringing" of the room. I actually love it! And the A16 reproduces all that perfectly, and it feels so much more natural than standard headphone bass. Of course ideally it should not be too much, and preferably without coloration, but some reverb (evenly distributed over the frequency spectrum)(also) in the bass really seems to be essential for my enjoyment.
My brain even played some funny tricks on me while listening to the A16: sometimes I could swear I felt the floor vibrating with the music, although that would have been impossible. (And no, in reality my floor doesn't even vibrate with the real speakers, or not that I ever noticed.) Some weird kind of unconscious expectation bias.

Maybe you need a period of adjustment. I used to own Aerial 10ts, and I've experimented with subs, and, personally, I don't very much mind a few room nodes especially when playing something like ELP's Tarkus. But in the case of that stuff, who's to say what's really an "Absolute Sound", not like dead white European male composed and arranged orchestral music, after all.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Optimal(having your PRIR and HPEQ made at the same session) and perfectly acceptable(having your PRIR made in a special location and then making your HPEQ at home) are not the same thing. Not optimal does not equal flawed. If you're going to spend that kind of money(or more, in some locations) then it makes sense to strongly consider bringing along your own headphones if it's feasible. Obviously, you will not be bringing a Stax SR009 and Blue Hawaii combo, or a Sennheiser HE1 setup to the PRIR session, however, there's no downside to bringing along other headphones. BTW, I have a pair of Sennheiser HD800 headphones and I can tell you that it's not that big a deal to transport them with you inside their box. Of course, if that doesn't work for you then you need not worry that the PRIR police are going to come for you.

For the HD 800s, I would think you could buy a pellican case from Audeze and make them fit quite easily. Seems like $125 well spent if you're transporting a $1000+ headphone.

 

[esimms86]

For the HD 800s, I would think you could buy a pellican case from Audeze and make them fit quite easily. Seems like $125 well spent if you're transporting a $1000+ headphone.

One of a number of acceptable protective transporting options.

 

[Fox1977]

A new KS Update (#59) was sent :
1) A16 Hardware changes

Effective immediately, all Realiser A16s will incorporate Momentum Data System’s 6th generation HSR41T HDMI repeater and the APM110 audio decoder sub-assemblies. All outstanding Kickstarter and Pre-sale A16s will also include this new hardware. This change has been forced on us due to the discontinuation of the HSR41Q and APM89L hardware used in production units to date. Realisers that incorporate the previous HSR41Q/APM89L hardware have used serial number formats A162U1901#xxxxxx for 2U and A16HS1901#xxxxxx for headstand form factors respectively. Realisers incorporating the new HSR41T/APM110 hardware will use the serial number format A162U2001#xxxxxx and A16HS2001#xxxxxx to signify the new configuration. Despite these hardware changes we intend to maintain a single unified firmware update for both hardware revisions going forward. This will mean that some features introduced in future updates may work differently, or not at all, depending on the HSR/APM hardware in your Realiser.

2) HSR41T HDMI repeater

A summary of the specification is listed below. It is similar to the HSR41Q except for the inclusion of enhanced audio return channel (eARC) on the output port.

• One 600 MHz full-featured output
• Up to 12-bit Deep Color and HDR (Dolby Vision etc)
• All typical color spaces supported
• HDMI 1.4 & 2.0b mandatory formats
• HDCP 2.3 for all ports
• Up to “4K” pixel rates at 24-60 Hz (4:4:4)
• 4K 4:2:0 format video at 60 Hz
• Enhanced ARC (eARC) support

HSR41T based Realiser A16s will now support eARC as the 5th HDMI input;

• eARC
• HDMI(1)
• HDMI(2)
• HDMI(3)
• HDMI(4)

A summary of the flexibility of the eARC is illustrated below. Essentially any audio input to a Smart TV can be directed to the A16 via the eARC output and rendered over headphones.

3) Extended Atmos Decoding

The new APM110 processor board implements all the audio decoder features of the previous APM89L processor (Atmos/dts-X/Auro3D etc) but due to its higher instruction rate it now supports extended Atmos decoding up to 24 channels. Newly supported Atmos speaker positions include Lfh/Rfh (front heights), Lrh/Rrh (rear heights), Lcs/Rcs (between the centre and L/R fronts), Ls1/Rs1 (between the wides and side surrounds), Lrs1/Rrs1 (between the side surrounds and the back surrounds) and Cs (rear centre). APM110 based Realiser A16 now support over ninety new listening modes using these new positions, for example;

• 8.1.6h ch (C, L, R, Lss, Rss, Lb, Rb, Cs, Lfh, Rfh, Ltm, Rtm, Lrh, Rrh, SUB)
• 9.1.8ch (C, L, R, Lw, Rw, Lss, Rss, Lb, Rb, Lfh, Rfh, Ltf, Rtf, Ltr, Rtr, Lrh, Rrh, SUB)
• 10.0.6ch (C, L, R, Lw, Rw, Lss, Rss, Lb, Rb, Cs, Ltf, Rtf, Ltm, Rtm, Ltr, Rtr)
• 11.1.4h ch (C, L, R, Lw, Rw, Lss, Rss, Lrs1, Rrs1, Lb, Rb, Lfh, Rfh, Lrh, Rrh, SUB)
• 12.0.4h ch (C, L, R, Lw, Rw, Lss, Rss, Lrs1, Rrs1, Lb, Rb, Cs, Lfh, Rfh, Lrh, Rrh)
• 13.1.10ch (C, Lcs, Rcs, L, R, Lw, Rw, Lss, Rss, Lrs1, Rrs1, Lb, Rb, Lfh, Rfh, Ltf, Rtf, Ltm, Rtm, Ltr, Rtr, Lrh, Rrh, SUB)
• 14.0.10ch (C, Lcs, Rcs, L, R, Lw, Rw, Lss, Rss, Lrs1, Rrs1, Lb, Rb, Cs, Lfh, Rfh, Ltf, Rtf, Ltm, Rtm, Ltr, Rtr, Lrh, Rrh)
• 15.1.8ch (C, Lcs, Rcs, L, R, Lw, Rw, Ls1, Rs1, Lss, Rss, Lrs1, Rrs1, Lb, Rb, Lfh, Rfh, Ltf, Rtf, Ltr, Rtr, Lrh, Rrh, SUB)
• 16.1.4ch (C, Lcs, Rcs, L, R, Lw, Rw, Ls1, Rs1, Lss, Rss, Lrs1, Rrs1, Lb, Rb, Cs, Ltf, Rtf, Ltr, Rtr, SUB)

15.1.8ch Single User mode (SVS 24ch)

15.1.8ch Meter Display

16.1.4ch Single User mode (SVS 24ch)

13.1.10ch Single User mode (SVS 24ch)

10.0.6ch Dual User mode (SVS 16ch)

11.1.4ch Dual User mode (SVS 16ch)
Where virtual sound rooms comprise 16 speakers or less, the A16 can run in dual user mode (SVS 16ch) allowing two users to enjoy the same content. However, where the virtual sound room exceeds 16 speakers the A16 must use both SVS DSPs to render to headphone. APM110 based Realisers now include a single user mode (SVS 24ch) whereby only User-A operates and User-B is muted. Furthermore, since the A16 has only 16 physical line outputs, to avoid confusion, the AV mode will not operate for listening modes above 16 channels.

4) dts-X and Auro3D

Presently the dts-X and Auro3D decoder implementations on the APM110 are very similar to the previous APM89L and do not support any new speaker positions. We are still working to have the A16 dts-X and Auro3D decoder implementation certified by their respective companies (both decoders will run on either APM89L or APM110 based Realisers A16). Our progress has been slow in this department due partly to the way DTS organises their compliance tests and the fact that we are required to rent audio test equipment that is not readily available in the UK, in order to verify that the A16 meets the requirements. We have been informed by MDS that they are in the process of porting the new dts-X Pro decoder suite to the APM110 platform which is slated to also support up to 24 speakers. We would expect to add this capability to APM110 based A16s following completion of regular dts-X certification.

5) Dirac

The APM110 supports Dirac Live room correction which can run concurrently with Atmos (or dts-X/Auro3D) decoding up to 16 channels, if we were to license this feature from Dirac.

6) Realiser Exchange

We aim to launch a limited functionality Realiser Exchange website within the next 6-8 weeks provided our prelaunch testing concludes successfully. While the forum aspect of the Realiser Exchange should be running from launch, the PRIR store with shopping cart will not function initially except to allow members to post their own PRIRs for free share with other members. We also plan to host a PRIR merge function that will allow members to modify non-personalised PRIRs with data from their own measured files. Other functions such as building listening rooms and constructing Async measurement files are also in development. It is also our intention to distribute the PRIR files that were measured at Can Jam shows through the Exchange website as an incentive for those individuals to create an account.

Summary

Due to the A16 hardware upheaval we have had to postpone our ongoing firmware updates and general development work for now in order to ensure a smooth transition to this new configuration. We expect shipments of new A16 to begin by the end of March and firmware updates for both versions thereafter. We appreciate that these new features may be of interest to those customers/backers who have already received their A16. If sufficient interest exists, we may provide a limited-time return-to-factory upgrade service covering either the HSR41T on its own or the HSR41T/APM110 combination. We do not yet have exact pricing or a schedule for such a service but we believe it would be around US$185+shipping+tax and US$485+shipping+tax respectively. Please email James if you are interested in either (james@smyth-research.com).

------------------------------- END --------------------------------------

 

[Sordel]

#186 commented on KickStarter to say that his unit will be shipped next week... from #189, only 14 units left before my turn... As Sordel says, it seems to be slowing down while my turn is approaching... and Smyth Research still remains as silent as usual about shipping progress.

Well, any delay in the shipping progress can now be put down to the change in hardware announced on Kickstarter. It seems to be an upgrade so perhaps it's lucky (?) to be so late in the queue.

 

[GeorgeA]

I think that for the bakers that haven’t received their Realiser A16 units yet, the Project Update #59 might be also called “Every cloud has a silver lining“.

Frankly writing, eARC is not my cup of tea. Why would I connect a bluray player or whatever device to a smart TV as long as there are HDMI connections available at Realiser A16? Not to mention the possible conflict between the TV and Realiser A16 under eARC mode.

What Extended Atmos Decoding is concerned, I think that this is also a matter of preference. For someone who wants more than 16 virtual speakers that extended decoding is the solution. However, there is some restriction.

 

[Wernsen]

# 186: I received the device yesterday. Still with the "old" hardware

 

[phoenixdogfan]

A new KS Update (#59) was sent :
1) A16 Hardware changes

Effective immediately, all Realiser A16s will incorporate Momentum Data System’s 6th generation HSR41T HDMI repeater and the APM110 audio decoder sub-assemblies. All outstanding Kickstarter and Pre-sale A16s will also include this new hardware. This change has been forced on us due to the discontinuation of the HSR41Q and APM89L hardware used in production units to date. Realisers that incorporate the previous HSR41Q/APM89L hardware have used serial number formats A162U1901#xxxxxx for 2U and A16HS1901#xxxxxx for headstand form factors respectively. Realisers incorporating the new HSR41T/APM110 hardware will use the serial number format A162U2001#xxxxxx and A16HS2001#xxxxxx to signify the new configuration. Despite these hardware changes we intend to maintain a single unified firmware update for both hardware revisions going forward. This will mean that some features introduced in future updates may work differently, or not at all, depending on the HSR/APM hardware in your Realiser.

2) HSR41T HDMI repeater

A summary of the specification is listed below. It is similar to the HSR41Q except for the inclusion of enhanced audio return channel (eARC) on the output port.

• One 600 MHz full-featured output
• Up to 12-bit Deep Color and HDR (Dolby Vision etc)
• All typical color spaces supported
• HDMI 1.4 & 2.0b mandatory formats
• HDCP 2.3 for all ports
• Up to “4K” pixel rates at 24-60 Hz (4:4:4)
• 4K 4:2:0 format video at 60 Hz
• Enhanced ARC (eARC) support

HSR41T based Realiser A16s will now support eARC as the 5th HDMI input;

• eARC
• HDMI(1)
• HDMI(2)
• HDMI(3)
• HDMI(4)

A summary of the flexibility of the eARC is illustrated below. Essentially any audio input to a Smart TV can be directed to the A16 via the eARC output and rendered over headphones.

3) Extended Atmos Decoding

The new APM110 processor board implements all the audio decoder features of the previous APM89L processor (Atmos/dts-X/Auro3D etc) but due to its higher instruction rate it now supports extended Atmos decoding up to 24 channels. Newly supported Atmos speaker positions include Lfh/Rfh (front heights), Lrh/Rrh (rear heights), Lcs/Rcs (between the centre and L/R fronts), Ls1/Rs1 (between the wides and side surrounds), Lrs1/Rrs1 (between the side surrounds and the back surrounds) and Cs (rear centre). APM110 based Realiser A16 now support over ninety new listening modes using these new positions, for example;

• 8.1.6h ch (C, L, R, Lss, Rss, Lb, Rb, Cs, Lfh, Rfh, Ltm, Rtm, Lrh, Rrh, SUB)
• 9.1.8ch (C, L, R, Lw, Rw, Lss, Rss, Lb, Rb, Lfh, Rfh, Ltf, Rtf, Ltr, Rtr, Lrh, Rrh, SUB)
• 10.0.6ch (C, L, R, Lw, Rw, Lss, Rss, Lb, Rb, Cs, Ltf, Rtf, Ltm, Rtm, Ltr, Rtr)
• 11.1.4h ch (C, L, R, Lw, Rw, Lss, Rss, Lrs1, Rrs1, Lb, Rb, Lfh, Rfh, Lrh, Rrh, SUB)
• 12.0.4h ch (C, L, R, Lw, Rw, Lss, Rss, Lrs1, Rrs1, Lb, Rb, Cs, Lfh, Rfh, Lrh, Rrh)
• 13.1.10ch (C, Lcs, Rcs, L, R, Lw, Rw, Lss, Rss, Lrs1, Rrs1, Lb, Rb, Lfh, Rfh, Ltf, Rtf, Ltm, Rtm, Ltr, Rtr, Lrh, Rrh, SUB)
• 14.0.10ch (C, Lcs, Rcs, L, R, Lw, Rw, Lss, Rss, Lrs1, Rrs1, Lb, Rb, Cs, Lfh, Rfh, Ltf, Rtf, Ltm, Rtm, Ltr, Rtr, Lrh, Rrh)
• 15.1.8ch (C, Lcs, Rcs, L, R, Lw, Rw, Ls1, Rs1, Lss, Rss, Lrs1, Rrs1, Lb, Rb, Lfh, Rfh, Ltf, Rtf, Ltr, Rtr, Lrh, Rrh, SUB)
• 16.1.4ch (C, Lcs, Rcs, L, R, Lw, Rw, Ls1, Rs1, Lss, Rss, Lrs1, Rrs1, Lb, Rb, Cs, Ltf, Rtf, Ltr, Rtr, SUB)

15.1.8ch Single User mode (SVS 24ch)

15.1.8ch Meter Display

16.1.4ch Single User mode (SVS 24ch)

13.1.10ch Single User mode (SVS 24ch)

10.0.6ch Dual User mode (SVS 16ch)

11.1.4ch Dual User mode (SVS 16ch)
Where virtual sound rooms comprise 16 speakers or less, the A16 can run in dual user mode (SVS 16ch) allowing two users to enjoy the same content. However, where the virtual sound room exceeds 16 speakers the A16 must use both SVS DSPs to render to headphone. APM110 based Realisers now include a single user mode (SVS 24ch) whereby only User-A operates and User-B is muted. Furthermore, since the A16 has only 16 physical line outputs, to avoid confusion, the AV mode will not operate for listening modes above 16 channels.

4) dts-X and Auro3D

Presently the dts-X and Auro3D decoder implementations on the APM110 are very similar to the previous APM89L and do not support any new speaker positions. We are still working to have the A16 dts-X and Auro3D decoder implementation certified by their respective companies (both decoders will run on either APM89L or APM110 based Realisers A16). Our progress has been slow in this department due partly to the way DTS organises their compliance tests and the fact that we are required to rent audio test equipment that is not readily available in the UK, in order to verify that the A16 meets the requirements. We have been informed by MDS that they are in the process of porting the new dts-X Pro decoder suite to the APM110 platform which is slated to also support up to 24 speakers. We would expect to add this capability to APM110 based A16s following completion of regular dts-X certification.

5) Dirac

The APM110 supports Dirac Live room correction which can run concurrently with Atmos (or dts-X/Auro3D) decoding up to 16 channels, if we were to license this feature from Dirac.

6) Realiser Exchange

We aim to launch a limited functionality Realiser Exchange website within the next 6-8 weeks provided our prelaunch testing concludes successfully. While the forum aspect of the Realiser Exchange should be running from launch, the PRIR store with shopping cart will not function initially except to allow members to post their own PRIRs for free share with other members. We also plan to host a PRIR merge function that will allow members to modify non-personalised PRIRs with data from their own measured files. Other functions such as building listening rooms and constructing Async measurement files are also in development. It is also our intention to distribute the PRIR files that were measured at Can Jam shows through the Exchange website as an incentive for those individuals to create an account.

Summary

Due to the A16 hardware upheaval we have had to postpone our ongoing firmware updates and general development work for now in order to ensure a smooth transition to this new configuration. We expect shipments of new A16 to begin by the end of March and firmware updates for both versions thereafter. We appreciate that these new features may be of interest to those customers/backers who have already received their A16. If sufficient interest exists, we may provide a limited-time return-to-factory upgrade service covering either the HSR41T on its own or the HSR41T/APM110 combination. We do not yet have exact pricing or a schedule for such a service but we believe it would be around US$185+shipping+tax and US$485+shipping+tax respectively. Please email James if you are interested in either (james@smyth-research.com).

------------------------------- END --------------------------------------

Just got this. I am getting the new one b/c I had to send mine back for repairs over the changeover period. Very pumped about this. I see it will be Dirac Live Capable. We have to urge them to add DL as a software option. That would make this a really capable multi channel processor as well as a headphone processor.

 

[Fox1977]

Well, any delay in the shipping progress can now be put down to the change in hardware announced on Kickstarter. It seems to be an upgrade so perhaps it's lucky (?) to be so late in the queue.

According to the KS Update, "Effective immediately, all Realiser A16s will incorporate Momentum Data System’s 6th generation HSR41T HDMI repeater and the APM110 audio decoder sub-assemblies. All outstanding Kickstarter and Pre-sale A16s will also include this new hardware."
So theoretically, i should be lucky and get the upgraded version. By the way, according to Gilles Gérin, it will be named A16S.
I guess it also means that measuring rooms should be possible directly via HDMI, without using the 16 channel outputs, otherwise it wouldn't possible to measure 24 speakers.

@GeorgeA I think eARC will allow users to benefit fully of the A16 for example if they watch Netflix or Amazon Prime via the TV App.

 

[Got the Shakes]

Part of me would upgrade because of eARC, but I have an Apple TV and Nvidia Shield to using streaming apps with surround sound. If they were going to a HDMI 2.1 board I would do it for sure though.

 

[esimms86]

Just got this. I am getting the new one b/c I had to send mine back for repairs over the changeover period. Very pumped about this. I see it will be Dirac Live Capable. We have to urge them to add DL as a software option. That would make this a really capable multi channel processor as well as a headphone processor.

It will be Dirac Live capable but it's questionable as to whether Smyth Research would be interested in paying the licensing fees.

It's good to hear that they continue to work on DTS-X and Auro 3D certification, even if the work admittedly is moving forward at a snail's pace. Anyway, transparency is a very good thing.

The new hardware configuration raises two important questions for me. In reverse order of importance they are:
1)Once the upgrade process begins, what is the turnaround time for sending in your unit and getting it back. Keep in mind that Smyth Research's time estimates historically have not been very reliable.
2)Even if you don't need the upgrades, the big issue, as far as I'm concerned, is the compatibility of future firmware upgrades with the older(current) configuration. This could be a very significant issue for those of us who received units in the first batch. I don't anticipate that it will be an issue as extreme as, say, compatibility of an older iPad with current iPad software, but I imagine that many people will want to do the upgrade if, for no other reason, just for the peace of mind.

That being said, I am very encouraged by the news of the Realiser Exchange. Though I look at the 6-8 week timeframe as a soft estimate, it does appear that the CanJam, etc., PRIRs should hopefully become available by, say, the end of Spring.

 

[VandyMan]

Just got this. I am getting the new one b/c I had to send mine back for repairs over the changeover period. Very pumped about this. I see it will be Dirac Live Capable. We have to urge them to add DL as a software option. That would make this a really capable multi channel processor as well as a headphone processor.

One of my A-16s is on its way back for repair also. James readily agreed to update it with the new hardware. Despite all the communications issues and delays, my experience with Smyth customer support, after receiving my units, has been first rate.

 

[kh36267]

i responded to James expressing my interest in the hardware upgrade.

hopefully there is enough interest from others as well so that they can offer the service.