[zilch0md]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post to Head-Fi. I've been reading these forums long enough to tell that you guys are sick, so I'm going to start limiting my visits - hopefully I won't catch anything.

Meanwhile, I know there's no better place to ask for the advice I'm seeking.

In December of 2004, I bought a Headroom Supreme and a pair of Sennheiser HD280 Pro's - my first venture into this realm. Right from day one, I was disappointed in the Supreme - it just didn't seem to offer anything over plugging the HD280's directly into my source - an HP iPAQ 4350 PDA that has an 8 GB SD memory card loaded with 320k MP3's I rip from purchased CD's
using AudioGrabber. In fact, I could never really say for sure using the HD280's but it always seemed as if the Headroom Supreme was taking away at least a little bit of the detail and texture that could be heard when the HD 280's were directly connected to my source. Thus, the Supreme has sat unused in a closet the better part of three years. I really should have returned it under the 30-day guarantee.

I've learned only recently, while reading reviews of various headphones, that some are said to be greatly improved when used with a good amp where others gain nothing from using an amplifier. That got me thinking that maybe the HD280's are just one of those that simply can't benefit from amplification. This, in turn, got me thinking that maybe my Headroom Supreme wasn't a waste of money after all - maybe I just didn't have the right cans for it.

I wanted something less bulky than the HD280's for portable listening so, having done my homework, I recently bought a pair of Shure E4G's. They are unquestionably supeior to the HD280's, in my opinion, especially in terms of detail/texture across the entire spectrum, but the E4G's fall short of the HD280's in bass response. They're "tighter" than the HD280's, but they just don't reach down as far.

It didn't take long to start wondering what the E4G's would sound like on the Headroom Supreme... Yuck! A huge disappointment. Everything I'd only suspected about the Supreme robbing detail from the HD280's was readily obvious with the E4G's. The Shure's deliver so much more "resolution" than the HD280's that when I inserted the amp, it became very clear that the amp only retards detail and texture. I can not discern ANY benefit with using the Headroom Supreme.

Taking the amp in and out, I've compared segments of several songs - everything from Yo-Yo Ma, to Eva Cassidy, to Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, to Trapt. Pick your poison, the Headroom Supreme just smoothes all the corners. It would be an exagheation to say that it sounds like I'm listening to the music with a towel wrapped around my head, but that's the idea. Having heard what the un-amped E4G's can do, I went back to swapping the amp in and out with the HD280's and now that I know what to listen for, I'm still concluding that the HD280's have more detail without the amp, but the negative impact of the Headroom Supreme just isn't as dramatic as with the E4G's.

All that said, I'm actually contemplating throwing good money after bad, (see, I'm sick, too...) to upgrade the worthless Headroom Supreme from it's 2004 Desktop Module to a 2006 Home Module. This will reduce battery life from about 20 hours to 8 hours, but that's fine with me as long as the final product is better audio than what I'm getting without an amp. Frankly, I'm so content with the E4G's, I really can't imagine what it is that "better audio" could do for me, but I'm thinking I should try to rescue my original $500 investment by tossing another $250 at it.

So here's the question: Can anyone honestly say that, in their opinion, a $250 upgrade of my Headroom Supreme to the 2006 Home Module would add "anything" to what a pair of Shure E4G's can do on their own?

Here's another one while I'm at it: A Headroom Micro-Amp can be had for $299.00 with your choice of a Desktop or Home module (same price). If someone can give me a good reason to upgrade my Headroom Supreme to the 2006 Home Module, I'm curious if you'd have any reason to discourage me from antying up another $50 to just get the Micro-Amp with Home Module:

http://www.headphone.com/products/he...-micro-amp.php

(Hint: I've read this thread already: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showth...hlight=archive )

Thanks!

Mike

 

[zilch0md]

Wow. 32 views and no replies.

Here's the short version:

Does anyone have any experience using a Headroom amp equipped with the 2006 Desktop or Home modules WITH the Shure E4G or E4C IEM's?

If so, please describe the advantages enjoyed vs. driving the E4G/C without an amp.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[Dept_of_Alchemy]

Mike, what are you using as source? I suspect the Supreme might just be revealing the faults upstream from your system if you have a weaker source. You know what they say, garbage in garbage out. Also, what sort of cables are you using to connect your source to the Supreme? Bad cables (eg cheapies from radio shack) can introduce unwanted interference and noice.

280pro and E4g are both low impedance phones, so improvements from amping will be smaller than some other phones, but the improvement should be clearly audible. I have a pair of E3c and it does improve when amped. It sounds like you love your E4, Ray Samual's Tomahawk amp is designed specifically to drive IEMs, you might want to look into that.

Welcome to head-fi, sorry 'bout your wallet.

 

[Coltrane]

HP iPAQ 4350 PDA


There is your problem. I dont know that much, but I would imagine that a PDA is pretty much the worst source you can find. Try plugging the supreme into a CD player, and see what happens.

Still, with 280s and E4s I doubt you would hear a huge difference, although I am unfamiliar with the 280s.

 

[zilch0md]

Hi,

I really appreciate your reply...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dept_of_Alchemy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Mike, what are you using as source?

I'm using an HP iPAQ 4350 PDA that's playing 320k MP3's I ripped from CD's using Audiograbber.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Dept_of_Alchemy I suspect the Supreme might just be revealing the faults upstream from your system if you have a weaker source. You know what they say, garbage in garbage out.

Yes, but the E4G's sound fantastic when plugged directly into the PDA and they sound muffled - with a big loss of texture and detail across the entire spectrum - when amped with the Headroom Supreme. Surely, the E4G's can't clean up the "garbage" signal coming from my source when operating without the amp? I think the lackluster performance of the Supreme's 2004 Desktop Module has been "exposed" by the good performance of the E4G's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dept_of_Alchemy Also, what sort of cables are you using to connect your source to the Supreme? Bad cables (eg cheapies from radio shack) can introduce unwanted interference and noice.

Roger that. I'm using the best cables Headroom offered at the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dept_of_Alchemy 280pro and E4g are both low impedance phones, so improvements from amping will be smaller than some other phones, but the improvement should be clearly audible. I have a pair of E3c and it does improve when amped. It sounds like you love your E4, Ray Samual's Tomahawk amp is designed specifically to drive IEMs, you might want to look into that. Welcome to head-fi, sorry 'bout your wallet.

Yeah, either the Tomahawk or the Hornet (with the proper impedance match selected). But I'd have to read about someone raving that these amps improved their E4G performance before I'd spend the money.

It's starting to look like I'll have to buy a pair of Senn 650's just to have a reason to hang onto my Headroom Supreme - it doesn't do anything for my low impedance phones - it hurts them.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[zilch0md]

Hi Coltrane,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coltrane /img/forum/go_quote.gif HP iPAQ 4350 PDA There is your problem. I dont know that much, but I would imagine that a PDA is pretty much the worst source you can find. Try plugging the supreme into a CD player, and see what happens. Still, with 280s and E4s I doubt you would hear a huge difference, although I am unfamiliar with the 280s.

I will try connecting my iRiver portable CD player to the HD280's and E4G's tonight - with and without the Headroom Supreme. Your suspicions may be true for some PDA's, but I'd be very surprised to hear any such complaints from iPAQ 4350 owners.

Let's imagine for a moment that the 4350 is a poor source. How could the E4G's sound a LOT BETTER when connected directly to that source than with the Headroom Supreme sitting in between? As I just stated in the post above, how could the E4G's alone be cleaning up a "garbage" source? To me it makes more sense to think of the total signal path as a weakest link in the chain situation. Nothing's going to make a garbage source sound good, so if the introduction of a new link in the chain makes things sound worse, that link is the weak link - the Headroom Supreme, in this case.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[Icarium]

I had an old headroom airhead amp and when I plugged in into my old DAP the sound became unlistenable. There was an insanely loud hiss and distortion occurred when I pressed buttons. However, using the amp with other sources it works just fine and noticeably rounds out the sound for a fuller sound over all.

 

[bloodydoorknob]

I think investing in a tomahawk would be a good way to go for you. I currently use the hornet and the tomahawk with my IEM's. As far as my experience in amping anything in the Shure IEM line, I've only tried the shure e500's with the Hornet and the biggest difference I noticed was the added weight and brightness to the sound. Base notes were thicker and vocals were noticably warmer. The tomahawk has a similar sound signature to the Hornet, but less imposing in the midrange, so it could be more beneficial for shure earphones, since there is a bit of a midrange hump in the sound characteristics of shure IEMS. I've owned the e4c's in the past, but that was before I caught the head-fi amp bug, so there's not much I could tell you in that respect, but I do remember the e4's being a little base shy(something an RSA amp could fix). Hope this helps!

 

[Dept_of_Alchemy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zilch0md /img/forum/go_quote.gif Let's imagine for a moment that the 4350 is a poor source. How could the E4G's sound a LOT BETTER when connected directly to that source than with the Headroom Supreme sitting in between? As I just stated in the post above, how could the E4G's alone be cleaning up a "garbage" source? To me it makes more sense to think of the total signal path as a weakest link in the chain situation. Nothing's going to make a garbage source sound good, so if the introduction of a new link in the chain makes things sound worse, that link is the weak link - the Headroom Supreme, in this case.

That's an interesting argument, although in all honesty a PDA isn't really a proper source for the Supreme. Are you sure that the Supreme is robbing detail? As in, you can hear things with the PDA alone that you cannot hear with the Supreme in the chain?

I don't know about amps, but it's common knowledge that when head-fiers get more revealing headphones, they often report that their list of listenable music shrink in half because the new headphones are revealing faults they hadn't noticed before.

Rather than spending the $250 on a module upgrade, I would get the HeadRoom MicroDAC instead. Now THAT's a proper source for ya.

 

[jcn3]

before doing anything, i would definitely hook up a source that is known to be of a high quality (i would use a cdp to start).

the hp could sound better because it is committing sins of omission or commission -- actually leaving some of the sound out or artifically manipulating certain frequencies. So it doesn't necessarily sound right, just good.

Then by adding the supreme in the mix, the inaccurate sound is reproduced fully and accurately.

that's my story and i'm sticking to it.

 

[zilch0md]

OK... After a few rounds of Battlefield 2142 with my clan and then sitting down for tonight's episode of "Heroes" off my TiVo, I managed to keep my commitment to try swapping the Headroom Supreme in and out while using my CD player as a source for the Shure E4G's (instead of my HP iPAQ 4350 PDA.) I listened to some cello, a very breathy japanese flute, and some Eva Cassidy. You'll just have to take my word for this, and I realize that assessments of audio quality are a very subjective thing, but just as when I was using the PDA as my source, my Headroom Supreme (with the 2004 Desktop module), is degrading the resolution of the signal from the CD player - plain and simple.

When the E4G's are plugged directly into the CD player's headphone jack, there's just a readily noticable "edge" to every note compared to how the E4G's sound when they are amped with the Headroom Supreme. That amp (with that particular electronics module) just robs the signal of detail, whether I'm using the CD player or the PDa.

After beating that test to death, I then tried comparing the same songs on CD to their ripped 320k MP3 counterparts on the iPAQ 4350 PDA - not using the amp at all, but rather just trying to see if the MP3's sounded as good as the original CD in the EG4's. I can say that there's a subtle difference that I can't put to words, but detail and texture are identical. If there is any loss of detail in the 320k MP3's compared to the original CD tracks, it's beyond my discernment. The loss in detail caused by using the Headroom Supreme with the E4G's, on the other hand, from either source, is easily detected.

I've scoured these forums, but haven't found any posts saying wonderful things about using the Tomahawk or the Hornet with the E4G's, so I think I'll just enjoy the freedom of using them without an amp for a while - as much as I love hardware, I've got to believe there's a functional benefit to be enjoyed before I'll buy it - no matter how sweet some of these amps look cosmetically. (Yes, I like eye candy, too.) But, I'm certainly not going to purchase and drag around a piece of hardware that melts away detail the way the Supreme does with the E4G's.

I appreciate all your suggestions. If anyone finds a review where someone is raving about their E4G's actually being enhanced by an amp, please post it.

Now I'm going to see if I can dig up a post where any IEM was greatly improved with any amp...

Thanks!

Mike

 

[dura]

I used to have a Musical Fidelity X-CANv3 which is a good tubed amp.
But the sq of the E4s didn't improve using it, simply because they don't need an amp.

 

[donunus]

First question, There is a 2004 supreme??? They came out early 90s. I bought a headroom little which was supposed to be the home version close to the supreme. My 580s lost detail coming from my pcdps line out. The sony pcdp I had sounded more detailed through its headphone jack although lacked power. I thought hmmm, I'm upgrading the power supply... negligible difference in detail. From then on I lost confidence in headroom products. That is unless I hear new stuff today that will change my mind.

My David Berning .6 watt OTL blew the headroom out of the water when I got to compare them after I got one of the first ones from david. Of course, the berning amp was more expensive, was at least 5 years newer and had upgraded tubes (sylvania). oooh boy even my sr60s never sounded so good til i heard the berning amp with upgraded tubes.

The moral of the story, The supreme is the culprit (If similar to my headroom little), and you should buy another amp if you need one. Try a tube amp

 

[milkpowder]

Just ditch the amp then. No point keeping the amp if you're sure it is causing the problem. I've also had problems with amps robbing detail eg. Supermacro-LE and my custom IEMs

 

[zilch0md]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dura /img/forum/go_quote.gif I used to have a Musical Fidelity X-CANv3 which is a good tubed amp. But the sq of the E4s didn't improve using it, simply because they don't need an amp.

I have no problem believing that. Thanks for the input!

Mike