[Dillan]

From a technical standpoint, why does this cost $4000.00?

Specifically can someone help me understand the comparison from this to other daps or dap combos and why they charge four thousand dollars for this one versus the price of others that compare to this.

Thanks so much for any help!

 

[corius]

Pointless question.
 
Why is the Mona Lisa worth...,.
Why does a Patek Phillipe cost...
Why does a Ferrari cost...,
etc
 
It costs that much because of a) brand positioning  b) it is considered by many as the best portable standalone player, c) people are willing to pay that price.

 

[Dillan]

  Pointless question.
 
Why is the Mona Lisa worth...,.
Why does a Patek Phillipe cost...
Why does a Ferrari cost...,
etc
 
It costs that much because of a) brand positioning  b) it is considered by many as the best portable standalone player, c) people are willing to pay that price.

Im not asking philosophically. Im asking TECHNICALLY. So when comparing laptops I understand this laptop might cost more because it has an i7 with more storage versus an i3 with less storage and screen with less resolution etc
 
I understand why those things you listed are expensive. But this is a piece of technology that can be compared to others almost in black and white. So can someone technical minded help explain to me. Serious discussions only please.
 
Is the built in DAC better than say the portable ifi micro iDSD which has True Native Octa-DSD512/PCM768/Double DXD? (which is $500 and also has a built in amplifier unlike the AK380 which you pay extra for). I'm not hating on the unit, in fact the whole reason i'm starting the thread is to figure out if I should buy it or not. I just can't personally figure out why the price is so high.

 

[kaneman]

....because somewhere, out there.... are people willing to pay for it. For this principle taken to the ultimate extreme please also see the tera-player, now priced at EUR10,000.

 

[reginalb]

 
Im not asking philosophically. Im asking TECHNICALLY. So when comparing laptops I understand this laptop might cost more because it has an i7 with more storage versus an i3 with less storage and screen with less resolution etc
 
I understand why those things you listed are expensive. But this is a piece of technology that can be compared to others almost in black and white. So can someone technical minded help explain to me. Serious discussions only please.
 
Is the built in DAC better than say the portable ifi micro iDSD which has True Native Octa-DSD512/PCM768/Double DXD? (which is $500 and also has a built in amplifier unlike the AK380 which you pay extra for). I'm not hating on the unit, in fact the whole reason i'm starting the thread is to figure out if I should buy it or not. I just can't personally figure out why the price is so high.

 
The answer you are quoting, while not worded as such, is not philosophical. It is an actual description of how pricing works, which is not (directly) determined by the cost of inputs.
 
The i7 laptop does not cost more than the i3 laptop due to the cost of the processors, rather that demand is increased through the relative increase in performance. The demand (and supply) determin price. Cost of inputs affects prices indirectly, for sure. It informs the production decision, that is: Good A would cost me X to produce, and demand price Y, if Y > X then I might enter the market, but the act of my entering the market shifts the supply of A thus affecting price. So while costs of inputs inform product decisions, which in turn can affect price, there is not a direct cause and effect relationship between cost of inputs and price.
 
Is it better than the iDSD? That's not a question that can be answered. Does it suit you more? Maybe. With some EQ I'd wager they could sound indiscernbile from one another (in blind testing) but they are also very different goods. Is it worth the price difference to you? Probably not, I personally wouldn't buy either of them. I am considering an AK300, but for my own reasons, it's also too expensive, in my estimation - that is, to me.
 
The real answer to your question is that audiophiles are willing to pay $3,800 for the AK380.

 

[Dillan]

   
The answer you are quoting, while not worded as such, is not philosophical. It is an actual description of how pricing works, which is not (directly) determined by the cost of inputs.
 
The i7 laptop does not cost more than the i3 laptop due to the cost of the processors, rather that demand is increased through the relative increase in performance. The demand (and supply) determin price. Cost of inputs affects prices indirectly, for sure. It informs the production decision, that is: Good A would cost me X to produce, and demand price Y, if Y > X then I might enter the market, but the act of my entering the market shifts the supply of A thus affecting price. So while costs of inputs inform product decisions, which in turn can affect price, there is not a direct cause and effect relationship between cost of inputs and price.
 
Is it better than the iDSD? That's not a question that can be answered. Does it suit you more? Maybe. With some EQ I'd wager they could sound indiscernbile from one another (in blind testing) but they are also very different goods. Is it worth the price difference to you? Probably not, I personally wouldn't buy either of them. I am considering an AK300, but for my own reasons, it's also too expensive, in my estimation - that is, to me.
 
The real answer to your question is that audiophiles are willing to pay $3,800 for the AK380.

 
Thank you for a little more detailed answer, it helps me understand a little. I have to disagree with some stuff, pricing isn't purely supply and demand.. the i7 performs better than the i3 for instance from a technical standpoint and more R&D went into that product thus naturally making the price higher. My question may be asked incorrectly though, I am not wondering how pricing works in general.. let me rephrase a little.
 
How do the components and build quality of other DAP's compare to the AK380 from a pure performance and technical standpoint? Does the DAC chip play better than native 512 DSD? Is the screen resolution significantly higher than other DAP's? Is the RAM etc better than other DAP's near its price range?
 
I would argue an early 90's beeper covered in diamonds and autographed by Barrack Obama might be "worth" more than an iphone 6, but I think an iphone 6 performs better as a communications device and has a lot more features.. thus if I want the best performing smartphone then I would choose the iphone OVER the beeper.. but I am not wondering why it would cost more (I understand that).
 
As a potential buyer I would just like to understand if the price tag is worth it (PERFORMANCE WISE) compared to other options or if I can get the same performance and spend about $3000 dollars less and get a built in amplifier without having to buy that as extra when compared to the 380.

 

[robm321]

I understand what you are asking OP. So far, no one posting seems to get it. I don't have answers, but I'm curious what people that actually know can say about it. 

 

[reginalb]

   
Thank you for a little more detailed answer, it helps me understand a little. I have to disagree with some stuff, pricing isn't purely supply and demand.. the i7 performs better than the i3 for instance from a technical standpoint and more R&D went into that product thus naturally making the price higher. My question may be asked incorrectly though, I am not wondering how pricing works in general.. let me rephrase a little.
 
How do the components and build quality of other DAP's compare to the AK380 from a pure performance and technical standpoint? Does the DAC chip play better than native 512 DSD? Is the screen resolution significantly higher than other DAP's? Is the RAM etc better than other DAP's near its price range?
 
I would argue an early 90's beeper covered in diamonds and autographed by Barrack Obama might be "worth" more than an iphone 6, but I think an iphone 6 performs better as a communications device and has a lot more features.. thus if I want the best performing smartphone then I would choose the iphone OVER the beeper.. but I am not wondering why it would cost more (I understand that).
 
As a potential buyer I would just like to understand if the price tag is worth it (PERFORMANCE WISE) compared to other options or if I can get the same performance and spend about $3000 dollars less and get a built in amplifier without having to buy that as extra when compared to the 380.

 
the better performance leads to an increase in demand, which is the actual mechanism that determines price. But at this point I'm just being a pedant. I PM'ed some stuff your way. Hope it helps. 

 

[Jalo]

 
As a potential buyer I would just like to understand if the price tag is worth it (PERFORMANCE WISE) compared to other options or if I can get the same performance and spend about $3000 dollars less and get a built in amplifier without having to buy that as extra when compared to the 380.

First of all, the AK380 has a built in amplifier.  You don't have to buy that as an extra to use with most iems.  If you intend to use it with full size headphone then depends on which one and you'll need to find an external amp to pair with your full size headphone.  Second it does not cost $4,000.00.  The list price is $3,499.99 and many times at shows and conventions you can get it for around $3,000.00 which is still high.  It is true that as a stand alone dap it is one of the top daps available with very nice design and UI.  I think the LPG sound almost as good for half the price but the UI sucks and without any digital out feature. I like the fermo crystal clock and two native AKM native dsd dacs. I also like their design and choice of metal case.  If you don't care about aesthetic and certain functions, you can definitely get almost equal quality dap for much cheaper price. 

 

[kaneman]

Harvard Business Review goes into quite a bit of detail, but in short... price as high as the market will allow and have other products at lower strata to capture sales and profit across economic abilities. Price needn't be related to cost and in the case of the AK, almost certainly isn't. Their costs will be the Bill of Materials, assembly, development, inventory and marketing. But absent precious metals being used in it, there's no way the BoM, development and manufacturing costs add up to $3,500. Many items are priced with little relation to cost. Beats headphones are a prime example.
 
In a way it's good for the market as a whole; it completely redraws the landscape for what is considered 'value' in DAPs, brings some measure of visibility, and drives R&D, competition, and design. I gotta say, much credit for the trend in better design and appearance in DAPs should go to AK. The DX100 and HM901 sure as hell didn't push anybody anywhere on the design front!
 
https://hbr.org/2012/09/how-to-find-out-what-customers-will-pay

 

[Dillan]

   
the better performance leads to an increase in demand, which is the actual mechanism that determines price. But at this point I'm just being a pedant. I PM'ed some stuff your way. Hope it helps. 

Thank you for the PM, it was very helpful!
 
 

  First of all, the AK380 has a built in amplifier.  You don't have to buy that as an extra to use with most iems.  If you intend to use it with full size headphone then depends on which one and you'll need to find an external amp to pair with your full size headphone.  Second it does not cost $4,000.00.  The list price is $3,499.99 and many times at shows and conventions you can get it for around $3,000.00 which is still high.  It is true that as a stand alone dap it is one of the top daps available with very nice design and UI.  I think the LPG sound almost as good for half the price but the UI sucks and without any digital out feature. I like the fermo crystal clock and two native AKM native dsd dacs. I also like their design and choice of metal case.  If you don't care about aesthetic and certain functions, you can definitely get almost equal quality dap for much cheaper price. 

 
Thank you for helping me understand a little bit more. What you said at the end is insightful because I don't really care too much about how it looks, only how it performs so your opinion is definitely meaningful to me. Do you enjoy yours? Are there pros and cons that are significant after your experience with it? Money is an object for me, but I still would like to give my headphones/IEM's the best sound they can out of a DAP without spending a cent more for aesthetics or prestige etc I would be willing to get the 380 or any other DAP if it's worth it from a performance/technical standpoint.

 

[Dillan]

  Harvard Business Review goes into quite a bit of detail, but in short... price as high as the market will allow and have other products at lower strata to capture sales and profit across economic abilities. Price needn't be related to cost and in the case of the AK, almost certainly isn't. Their costs will be the Bill of Materials, assembly, development, inventory and marketing. But absent precious metals being used in it, there's no way the BoM, development and manufacturing costs add up to $3,500. Many items are priced with little relation to cost. Beats headphones are a prime example.
 
In a way it's good for the market as a whole; it completely redraws the landscape for what is considered 'value' in DAPs, brings some measure of visibility, and drives R&D, competition, and design. I gotta say, much credit for the trend in better design and appearance in DAPs should go to AK. The DX100 and HM901 sure as hell didn't push anybody anywhere on the design front!
 
https://hbr.org/2012/09/how-to-find-out-what-customers-will-pay

I agree kudos to AK for making gorgeous looking units.

 

[Jalo]

 
Thank you for the PM, it was very helpful!
 
 
 
Thank you for helping me understand a little bit more. What you said at the end is insightful because I don't really care too much about how it looks, only how it performs so your opinion is definitely meaningful to me. Do you enjoy yours? Are there pros and cons that are significant after your experience with it? Money is an object for me, but I still would like to give my headphones/IEM's the best sound they can out of a DAP without spending a cent more for aesthetics or prestige etc I would be willing to get the 380 or any other DAP if it's worth it from a performance/technical standpoint.

If I were you and if cost is a factor, I will wait for a few more months for the next version of AK's totl to come out.  Either the next version is much better or the current version will drop in price. AK is a company that I love to hate because of their customer service.  I do like their product however even though I thought there is room for improvement.  I do think straightly from a performance perspective it is worth it to me.  This is one dap that you can feed a high end system.  

 

[Dillan]

If I were you and if cost is a factor, I will wait for a few more months for the next version of AK's totl to come out.  Either the next version is much better or the current version will drop in price. AK is a company that I love to hate because of their customer service.  I do like their product however even though I thought there is room for improvement.  I do think straightly from a performance perspective it is worth it to me.  This is one dap that you can feed a high end system.  

Actually that is pretty smart and good advice. I'm sure by the end of the year they'll have a new flagship. I could wait for that and choose accordingly. That's probably the best advice

 

[Jalo]

Actually that is pretty smart and good advice. I'm sure by the end of the year they'll have a new flagship. I could wait for that and choose accordingly. That's probably the best advice

As is always the case, as soon as a new star is announced with much better spec.  Within weeks you will see 30-40 percent discount on the for sale forum for the old unit even though the old unit is still great and AK has already announced that there will be a new totl out in 2017.