[AlanU]

 
Could you explain this? I've heard comments like this about certain headphones for a long time, especially about the HD800. But, I can never understand this. The HD800s soundstage is huge comparative to other headphones, but ridiculously tiny "compared to the actual recorded source." If you were there at the session, the singer is not singing a millimeter away from your nose and the high hat is not riding a few inches from your ear and the bass is not thumping in your throat. The scale is vastly larger in every dimension. I'm always trying to get soundstage bigger even with the HD800s, which is why I've appreciated the advances in DSP. 
 
I don't mean to disparage your opinion because I know the perspective is shared by probably more people than those who share mine. I think I kinda understand when I compare coherency to other phones, but when I think of live music I can never wrap my head around a headphone having an artificially inflated image. By the physics of a speaker abutting your ear, it's already artificially too small. 

If you've ever listened to an old school AVR they use to have settings like Hall, coliseum,  etc etc. 
 
I do find the HD800 to have an artificial spacious sound. If you listen to Eva Cassidy "Live at Blues Alley" the HD800 sounds like the music is played in "Coliseum". Listening to the same song in professionally designed sound rooms with 2 channel speakers $$$ the music presentation does not sound like the HD800. Same song "Fields of Gold" in other sound rooms with different speakers still do not have the vast exaggerated sound stage of the HD800.
 
If you use a Concero HD DAC you'll also get an additional massive soundstage that is definitely not true to source. 
 
Regardless of how good our Headphones get they will never get the musical emotional engagement of two disappearing 2 channel speakers. The resolution of headphones is incredible but even at live performances you cannot easily get the micro detail of tapping feet or fingers sliding on the strings etc. Music reproduction is "artificial" I've yet to hear headphones that even remotely comes close to the  musical engagement I get with a 2 channel.  Even my Totem Forests disappeared and created intimate musical bliss.  I'll listen to a 2 channel 90%++ of the time.  As you move up the chain in 2 channel speakers the dispersion of sound gets better and better. 
 
I don't know of any other headphones that have similar soundstage of the HD800. The music reproduction of the HD800 is without a doubt unique. The Senn HD800 probably has one of the most biggest "soundstages" in the headphone world. I use my personal 2 channel and professional sound rooms as a bench mark in how "artificial music reproduction" should sound like.
 
Since there's no factors of room acoustics in the headphone world the HD800 or any flashship headphone will never have room ambiance. The characteristic of the HD800 is not natural like how planars reproduce vocals.
 
I understand your point about "soundstage" is small in headphones compared to the real world. Headphones will never sound as good as a 2 channel. Even many of my friends that are not involved in the headphone world finds the HD800 to have a large spacious sound. When I mention "coliseum" in a joking manner they saw a relationship with that word with what they hear in the HD800. When they immediately throw on my HD650 they think that's a "normal" presentation of music. 
 
Imaging can be subjective in the 2 channel world. Some may find micro hyper detail to be a perfect representation of laser cut defined sounds locating instruments and vocals (position on stage). Some may find tubes to provide holographic musical bliss that blends the vocals and instruments together but less defined. However in both cases the speakers must disappear so you have no idea what location they are positioned in the room.
 
Headphone wise the speaker is directly in front of your ears. You can try to "see" where the singer resides in the music ...call it forward or 2,3 rows back. You can hear fine details by far better than any consumer grade home speakers. Some how the HD800 makes things sound like your in a huge room and has a less intimate soundstage. Due to the nature of the dynamic drivers you need to have a very organic sounding source (or coloured, pleasantly distorted tube amp) to produce musical emotional realism to the HD800.  
 
If the HD800S gets a bigger soundstage than the mark1 I'd find this to be a bad "upgrade". 
 
I do like my HD800 HP's. I select my HP with the type of mood I'm in. HD800 is simply different....nothing wrong with that.

 

[catspaw]

 
The big unknown is how the modifications affect the soundstage like the Anax mods do. Lets say that by small chance through my purchase of HD800S and HD800 I would get two devices with the exact same frequency response. I would much rather the version which hasn't had more material added between the driver and my ear to achieve the same result. 
 
I think that in the future if we have any reviews of HD800 or HD800S then the reviewer needs to show the individual frequency response so that we may have some kind of reference point.
 
The good news is that now the frequency responses are available in the box before registration takes place. This means that customers can request the 'truth' from their dealer before buying.
These aren't $500 headphones, they are a significant investment for most people and you want to receive what you have paid for.

This.
If you can see the freq response BEFORE buying, Sennheiser must have a huge confidence in their HPs.
I will try to get some auditioning with the HD800 once I get a DAC, but the good news is, if you see the freq response, and say... you get a high pitch in the treble you dont like, you might eq the area to see if that was what bothered you (and in turn know what to look for in the future).

 

[JamieMcC]

  If you've ever listened to an old school AVR they use to have settings like Hall, coliseum,  etc etc. 
 
I do find the HD800 to have an artificial spacious sound. If you listen to Eva Cassidy "Live at Blues Alley" the HD800 sounds like the music is played in "Coliseum". Listening to the same song in professionally designed sound rooms with 2 channel speakers $$$ the music presentation does not sound like the HD800. Same song "Fields of Gold" in other sound rooms with different speakers still do not have the vast exaggerated sound stage of the HD800.
 
If you use a Concero HD DAC you'll also get an additional massive soundstage that is definitely not true to source. 
 
Regardless of how good our Headphones get they will never get the musical emotional engagement of two disappearing 2 channel speakers. The resolution of headphones is incredible but even at live performances you cannot easily get the micro detail of tapping feet or fingers sliding on the strings etc. Music reproduction is "artificial" I've yet to hear headphones that even remotely comes close to the  musical engagement I get with a 2 channel.  Even my Totem Forests disappeared and created intimate musical bliss.  I'll listen to a 2 channel 90%++ of the time.  As you move up the chain in 2 channel speakers the dispersion of sound gets better and better. 
 
I don't know of any other headphones that have similar soundstage of the HD800. The music reproduction of the HD800 is without a doubt unique. The Senn HD800 probably has one of the most biggest "soundstages" in the headphone world. I use my personal 2 channel and professional sound rooms as a bench mark in how "artificial music reproduction" should sound like.
 
Since there's no factors of room acoustics in the headphone world the HD800 or any flashship headphone will never have room ambiance. The characteristic of the HD800 is not natural like how planars reproduce vocals.
 
I understand your point about "soundstage" is small in headphones compared to the real world. Headphones will never sound as good as a 2 channel. Even many of my friends that are not involved in the headphone world finds the HD800 to have a large spacious sound. When I mention "coliseum" in a joking manner they saw a relationship with that word with what they hear in the HD800. When they immediately throw on my HD650 they think that's a "normal" presentation of music. 
 
Imaging can be subjective in the 2 channel world. Some may find micro hyper detail to be a perfect representation of laser cut defined sounds locating instruments and vocals (position on stage). Some may find tubes to provide holographic musical bliss that blends the vocals and instruments together but less defined. However in both cases the speakers must disappear so you have no idea what location they are positioned in the room.
 
Headphone wise the speaker is directly in front of your ears. You can try to "see" where the singer resides in the music ...call it forward or 2,3 rows back. You can hear fine details by far better than any consumer grade home speakers. Some how the HD800 makes things sound like your in a huge room and has a less intimate soundstage. Due to the nature of the dynamic drivers you need to have a very organic sounding source (or coloured, pleasantly distorted tube amp) to produce musical emotional realism to the HD800.  
 
If the HD800S gets a bigger soundstage than the mark1 I'd find this to be a bad "upgrade". 
 
I do like my HD800 HP's. I select my HP with the type of mood I'm in. HD800 is simply different....nothing wrong with that.

 Eva Cassidy "Live at Blues Alley" is one of my favourite albums and I often use it as a reference when trying out different components. I can certainly say it sounds nothing like you have described on my own set up. Its much more intimate with a just across the room presentation there are lots of acoustic clues to venue size as sound and reverb rolls around the venue off of walls and ceilings. Its a superb live album with loads of emotion realism. The texturing and detail in Eva's vocals and accompanying instruments make it a very enjoyable and engaging listen.
 
 
 

 

[Nicklikesmusic]

 
 
Frankly I think the early HD800 charts look superior to the new HD800

The difference I see is a lower bass response and a rolled off upper treble compared to the other two shown previously. Your old chart also has 3dB vertical increments compared to the 5dB increments of the newer graphs. There are actually heaps better curves out there than the 3 which appear on these recent pages. Just try Google Images the range is quite surprising . But, who is to say which is the perfect curve?

 

[Youth]

 
 Eva Cassidy "Live at Blues Alley" is one of my favourite albums and I often use it as a reference when trying out different components.
 

 
Same. Excellent album 

 

[shabta]

My local dealer says that the distributor will have the HD800S available tomorrow. Retail in France: 1590 euros. The shop will have a demo pair very, very soon. woohoo!

 

[Sorrodje]

@AlanU : Maybe you should climb the ladder for your HD800 as you did for your speakers.  With subpar equipement , the HD800 sounds a bit "empty". Better amps have the ability to better fullfill the space provided by the HD800. Then it sounds far more cohesive. It's a matter of how much resolution the amp can extract in order to let the HD800 does its job at best. IME and IMO.
 
For sure, you won't reach the overall coherency of the HD6X0 and HE60 . It's definitevely the sweet spot of those headphones. But my concern about those presentations is that , whatever I throw in them , good or bad recordings and mix and masterings, they always sound coherent while a HD800 will sometimes sound stellar and sometimes sounds awful. Sometimes the presentation is very forward, sometimes very distant. Sometimes the guitar sounds like it's 10 feet large and sometimes it sounds more realistically.  I never met another headphones that sound so differently accordingly to the sound take.  the HD800 helped me to understand where are the mics.
 
That's probably one of the reason why the HD800 is stellar with classical and a lot of acoustic music.... those are often recorded with distant mics that catch the sound as a whole, hence the realism of what the HD800 reproduces.
 
I definitely hope the 800S will keep this ability and fix as much as possible the screwed mids to treble articulation.

 

[pearljam50000]

I tried a lot of headphones...none touch the HD800, they are the closest to real pro studio monitors( like ATC, PMC, Genelec),.they let you hear EVERYTHING and they are extremely flat. many other so called "flagships" were so colored it was

embarrassing​

...​

 
Many people like this type of sound, and many hate it, and that's OK.
To me there is no other way, a true audiophile wants to hear the music EXACTLY as it was recorded.

 

[Sorrodje]

To me there is no other way, a true audiophile wants to hear the music EXACTLY as it was recorded.

 
Strong and wrong statement. Experimented audiophiles know the "truth" is a volatile concept.

 

[obsidyen]

   
To me there is no other way, a true audiophile wants to hear the music EXACTLY as it was recorded.

 
Not that old fallacy... You'd end up with boring, clinical sound if you listened to what was exactly recorded. It's the mastering process that makes music enjoyable to listen to, thus skilled mastering engineers earn a lot of money. You can change the mastered final recording to your tastes with different gear. Old audiophile gear actually used tubes, analog equipment, vinyl etc. which produced a warm, smooth, yummy sound... Not flat, boring, dry.

 

[Dobrescu George]

   
Strong and wrong statement. Experimented audiophiles know the "truth" is a volatile concept.

I agree with you here!
 
A true audiophile knows that there is no truth. Everyone will have their own truth, their own definition of what is natural, how it sounded before recording and so on.
 
Bands and audio engineers recorded, mixed, and mastered without audiophile headphones, so the final sound we get from audiophile headphones is usually much better than the sound that was intended or was in the mind of the artist. (I highly doubt that most artist give any attention to how the texture of bass or the fingers sliding on strings sound, and so on. We pick them because the equipment can do this, but artist never pay attention to it, or at least most artists)
 
I listen to metal music a lot, this type in particular was never possible without electronic components (amps, guitar effects, distorts, fuzz, synths, FX, and so on). This states that there is no audiophile sound of metal, but the sound one likes. It was never live, live metal is not clear, it is distorted, usually an intended sound, but there is a high loss of details, and so on. 
 
I believe that all music is the same. This means that high end audio products sound much better than live performances, and live performances were never the true intent of high end audio equipment. I mean, come on, besides some classical, and some orchestral, most music is downright bad without mastering (pop, metal, rap, electronica-if it would be possible to be live), equalization, added effects, modulation and so on. I saw how music sounded before any modifications (stems of music. without any editing, purely what was recorded by microphones from studio). It was not good, the details were less apparent, soundstage was not great, everything was rather dull and boring. The final piece was very interesting, dynamic, and had tons of effects added, was made to sound good. All the processing did not induce bad noise or anything, but if it were to be left alone (live) it would have been pretty bad. This is why most concerts (except classical and orchestral and jazz) have a very compressed dynamic range, are loud, and equalization is very bad, sounds off. (They try to add some life to the music, but by doing so, they take even the little life there was

)
 
If you listen only to classical, jazz and orchestral, ignore the whole thing, as it does not apply to these genera, because these are purely acoustic and live IS usually better live than recorded. (To be there, with an orchestra in front of you, in a concert hall treated to sound good, IS really good). With jazz I have my doubts, I never heard live jazz (cannot wait to, I love some jazz artists)
 
Back to HD800S, I am very interested to see them, and when they will come to Romania, I will be first in line to hear them

 

[Dobrescu George]

   
Not that old fallacy... You'd end up with boring, clinical sound if you listened to what was exactly recorded. It's the mastering process that makes music enjoyable to listen to, thus skilled mastering engineers earn a lot of money. You can change the mastered final recording to your tastes with different gear. Old audiophile gear actually used tubes, analog equipment, vinyl etc. which produced a warm, smooth, yummy sound... Not flat, boring, dry.

 
And there are people who want the opposite, more tight, precise and bright sound that it was recorded. 
 
This is why there is no standard to how music should sound, and no headphone sounds the same. People have different tastes. 
 
And mood is also very important, there are times, when I want smooth, and warm sound, and there are times, when I want bright and tight sound. 

 

[GearMe]

I tried a lot of headphones...none touch the HD800, they are the closest to real pro studio monitors( like ATC, PMC, Genelec),.they let you hear EVERYTHING and they are extremely flat. many other so called "flagships" were so colored it was embarrassing

Many people like this type of sound, and many hate it, and that's OK.

Whew! For a minute I was panic-posting everything but my HD600s in the For Sale Forum...jk.

To me there is no other way, a true audiophile wants to hear the music EXACTLY as it was recorded.

And of course your hearing FR curve aligns EXACTLY with every Studio Engineers!

Hold on, there's more than one type of Studio Monitor?
I give up. It seems I'll never hear any song EXACTLY as it was recorded. Oh well, back to the For Sale Forum!

Or...wait for it...I think I'll create a 'false' audiophile thread -- where we talk about enjoying the music and how our gear allows us to do that.

 

[GearMe]

And there are people who want the opposite, more tight, precise and bright sound that it was recorded. 

This is why there is no standard to how music should sound, and no headphone sounds the same. People have different tastes. 

And mood is also very important, there are times, when I want smooth, and warm sound, and there are times, when I want bright and tight sound. 

This! I especially agree with the last sentence. Also, I have certain cans that I tend to use with certain genres.

 

[AlanU]

 
 Eva Cassidy "Live at Blues Alley" is one of my favourite albums and I often use it as a reference when trying out different components. I can certainly say it sounds nothing like you have described on my own set up. Its much more intimate with a just across the room presentation there are lots of acoustic clues to venue size as sound and reverb rolls around the venue off of walls and ceilings. Its a superb live album with loads of emotion realism. The texturing and detail in Eva's vocals and accompanying instruments make it a very enjoyable and engaging listen.
 
 
 

 
This is a perfect example that there is no perfect ears or there is a right or wrong in the headphone arena. My ears can be possibly trained or mislead by listening to other high dollar two channel systems vs headphones. There is certainly an illusion and holographic experience having your 2 channel speakers disappearing in front of you and making you feel like your in the "Blues Alley" nightclub. My experience I get with the HD800 is very good however it's not even close to my 2 channel's emotionally moving SQ. 
 
A room filled with music sounds real to life while I still cannot get that similar experience with my headphone rig. 
 
Not saying the HD800 setup I have is not engaging with no realism....quite the contrary. However feeling the air movement and listening to speakers that have disappeared in a room with a 2 channel setup is higher up in the pedestal for emotional engagement. I use my headphone rig so that I can escape from my kids so it's my alternate option for sanity
 
I'm still eager to take a listen to the new HD800S when it hits the streets in my local area.