[extrabigmehdi]

Quote:

Dynamic range is directly related to dynamic contrast, I don't know why you would say otherwise. It's certainly not the only factor and it's certainly not a limiting factor with modern equipment. As for your statement regarding transparency, your opinion of the O2's resolving prowess is hardly definitive proof to discount noise and distortion measurements. Though, granted, they're not the only relevant factors when speaking of resolution.
The A/B test I referred to included various combinations of the following, conducted over the course of a few weeks with sessions every couple of days:
Aphex HeadPod 454
Asus Xonar Essence STX
Grado RA1
HT Omega Claro Halo
Lavry DA11 (also attempted to use the balanced outs from the back, which resulted in some odd "phasing" artifact)
Little Dot MKIII
Stello HP100
Stello DA100 Sig.
Woo Audio WA22 (balanced and TRS)
The only amps that lagged behind consistently in both sighted and blind testing were the LD MKIII and Grado RA1. Among other problems the LD had a high noise floor and the RA1 had terrible channel balance.

Thanks ! But I'm not sure it's a good idea to compare solid state amps to tube amps, as from what I've understood tubes introduce distorsions/ sonic changes that people like ( let's use for instance  this thread , it's a link   to backup the statement).
 

 

[Tilpo]

Thanks ! But I'm not sure it's a good idea to compare solid state amps to tube amps, as from what I've understood tubes introduce distorsions/ sonic changes that people like ( let's use for instance  this thread , it's a link   to backup the statement).

 

With tube amps it's harder to limit distortion and noise, but it's definitely not impossible.
Generally speaking SS amps tend to have lower distortion and noise at the same price as tube counterparts. However, more high end tube amps are still nothing short of amazing spec wise. Like I said, it's just harder and more costly to make a low distortion/noise design with tubes than it is with solid state.

 

[Anaxilus]

Obviously my comment about 'contrasts' was wrt to transient responses, not as dynamic contrasts = dynamic range as you are construing.  You're talking about a static absolute measure from high to low, I'm talking about contrasts within a dynamic system/sample.
 
So from all those devices you'd say they all sound the same except for the Grado and LD?
 
You also didn't mention your source for the discrete amps.  I assume the Stello DAC?   
 
I'd also encourage you to listen to something more transparent than the WA22.  Perhaps a BA, Manley 300B or Pinnacle sourced by something at the level of a PWD before concluding the STX is the epitome of feeding the HD800.  The NAD M51 gets really close to the PWD for a good chunk less btw.  Plus if you're listening to any tracks longer than a minute, I'd find it hard to believe listening/brain fatigue hasn't set in.  It does for me.  Methodology is critical, otherwise everything does start sounding the same.

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

With tube amps it's harder to limit distortion and noise, but it's definitely not impossible.
Generally speaking SS amps tend to have lower distortion and noise at the same price as tube counterparts. However, more high end tube amps are still nothing short of amazing spec wise. Like I said, it's just harder and more costly to make a low distortion/noise design with tubes than it is with solid state.

 
x2
 
Most SS amps also have tons of stuff in the signal path that may or may not affect the output depending on the design.

 

[anetode]

Obviously my comment about 'contrasts' was wrt to transient responses, not as dynamic contrasts = dynamic range as you are construing.  You're talking about a static absolute measure from high to low, I'm talking about contrasts within a dynamic system/sample.

So from all those devices you'd say they all sound the same except for the Grado and LD?

You also didn't mention your source for the discrete amps.  I assume the Stello DAC?   

I'd also encourage you to listen to something more transparent than the WA22.  Perhaps a BA, Manley 300B or Pinnacle sourced by something at the level of a PWD before concluding the STX is the epitome of feeding the HD800.  The NAD M51 gets really close to the PWD for a good chunk less btw.  Plus if you're listening to any tracks longer than a minute, I'd find it hard to believe listening/brain fatigue hasn't set in.  It does for me.  Methodology is critical, otherwise everything does start sounding the same.

My volume matching was rudimentary, nonetheless the various candidates proved themselves pretty even. More often than not the amps were fed by the Lavry because of the flexibility of its settings. I listened for specific details and overall balance and sources including the STX were able to resolve the same eerie level of detail that the 800 excels at uncovering.

I've also heard the 800 through different sources during a sort of taste testing at a hifi-shop. These sources included the Luxman P1, a McIntosh receiver, and some tube receiver whose brand escapes me now. I'm looking forward to finally making it out to a meet to try out other equipment, with the Phonitor being at the top of the audition wishlist.

Methodology is critical, I agree, but what I'm saying is that after a certain point you're looking for audible deficits in gear designed for transparency, so a selection of amps sounding the same should not be a surprising find.

Thanks ! But I'm not sure it's a good idea to compare solid state amps to tube amps, as from what I've understood tubes introduce distorsions/ sonic changes that people like ( let's use for instance this thread , it's a link to backup the statement).

Properly made tube amps have no trouble keeping up with solid state without introducing audible levels of distortion. The Woo 22, for instance, was crystal clear.

 

[purrin]

Quote:

Thanks ! But I'm not sure it's a good idea to compare solid state amps to tube amps, as from what I've understood tubes introduce distorsions/ sonic changes that people like ( let's use for instance  this thread , it's a link   to backup the statement).
 

 
Nothing against miceblue and firev1 in that discussion, but it's quite obvious from their equipment lists, theoretical discourse, and tube amp simulations that they have certainly established themselves as the foremost experts in tube amp sound.
 
/sarcasm off/
 
Tube amps can be well designed with inaudible distortion or poorly designed with a lot of so-called "pleasing" distortion. Same as solid-state amps, although it can me argued that making a really bad solid-state design is more difficult. The traditional argument is that solid-state amps when over driven sound like crap; whereas certain types of tube amp designs (e.g. single-ended triode) when over driven produce even harmonics which are more tolerable than the odd order harmonics from solid-state. (Although I have to acknowledge that it is true that many tube designers opt for a colored distorted sound, i.e. some of the Woo offerings.)
 
All this doesn't matter anyways for the following reasons: 1) Amps that audibly distort (whether even or odd order harmonics) still IMHO sound like turd; 2) The level of distortion at the transducer is a magnitude higher than the distortion produced by any well designed amp.
 
Most people would be surprised at how close to each other well executed tube and solid-state amps sound alike. I bet folks wouldn't even be able to tell that one of my amps (a hybrid) sounds totally solid-state. I know I probably wouldn't be able to either in a blind test. I've recently listened to a solid-state amp, the DSHA-1, that I would almost think is a tube amp.
 

---

 
I've been sitting on the sidelines reading a lot of misconceptions and I can stand it no longer. Folks should stop spouting misinformation, referring to other nonsensical posts, musings, or theoretical masturbations on the differences between tube and solid state design, especially if people do not have direct experience with GOOD tube amps. Again, I repeat myself here: It all comes down to design and execution.
 
That being said, an Asus STX (which I am familiar with because I used to have one) is perfectly fine. Some people like Toyota Corollas, and they are just as effective from taking you from point A to point B as any other vehicle.

 

[Shroker]

Anyone ever worry about the slight color fading on the mesh of the HD800's. The outside of the code.
I have brushed agasint them a few times and they have a darker faded color than the edges (which are nice and silver). 

Is there a way to clean that up safely? Do I have to worry about it / will it impede the headphone?.

Loving the HD800 in every way though. The soundstage and how much it reveals is quite lovely.

 

[Anaxilus]

Driving the HD800 with a Corolla makes no sense when an Aventador has clearly better PRaT.
 
The DSHA-1 was definitely the best solid state amp I've heard yet designed for headphones.    Auditor and V200 are behind by comparison IMHO but are decent.  I'd like to have a Phonitor someday though for the pretty gauges and twisty knobs.  Still waiting to hear the B22 and Dynahi so I can formulate an opinion.

 

[sphinxvc]

Quote:

Still waiting to hear [x] so I can formulate an opinion.

 
You have no idea how rare that is.

 

[extrabigmehdi]

Quote:

I bet folks wouldn't even be able to tell that one of my amps (a hybrid) sounds totally solid-state. I know I probably wouldn't be able to either in a blind test.  [...]  Some people like Toyota Corollas, and they are just as effective from taking you from point A to point B as any other vehicle.

I found your comparison a bit dubious, we know that they are different way to go from point A to B. While we can define an unique transparent sound.
Transparency is exactly that :  between two transparent source you are unable to ABX which is different.  You said that tube can be as transparent as solid state, and I'm saying the Xonar STX can be as transparent as any decent source. Because it's the definition of transparency, it's not as if there's a more or less transparent sound to an other, it's transparent or not.

 

[purrin]

Quote:

and I'm saying the Xonar STX can be as transparent as any decent source.

 
And what might those "decent source(s)" be?

 

[Tilpo]

And what might those "decent source(s)" be?

When measured in loopback mode using RMAA all the specs seem to be below audible thresholds, meaning it should be transparent.
(source)

I would take those measurements with a grain of salt though, since it seems the test weren't done at full scale since at 16bit playback the noise floor is below the theoratical maximum of 96dB. Even then the results are still really quite good.

 

[rgs9200m]

Quote:

 
Nothing against miceblue and firev1 in that discussion, but it's quite obvious from their equipment lists, theoretical discourse, and tube amp simulations that they have certainly established themselves as the foremost experts in tube amp sound.
 
/sarcasm off/
 
Tube amps can be well designed with inaudible distortion or poorly designed with a lot of so-called "pleasing" distortion. Same as solid-state amps, although it can me argued that making a really bad solid-state design is more difficult. The traditional argument is that solid-state amps when over driven sound like crap; whereas certain types of tube amp designs (e.g. single-ended triode) when over driven produce even harmonics which are more tolerable than the odd order harmonics from solid-state. (Although I have to acknowledge that it is true that many tube designers opt for a colored distorted sound, i.e. some of the Woo offerings.)
 
All this doesn't matter anyways for the following reasons: 1) Amps that audibly distort (whether even or odd order harmonics) still IMHO sound like turd; 2) The level of distortion at the transducer is a magnitude higher than the distortion produced by any well designed amp.
 
Most people would be surprised at how close to each other well executed tube and solid-state amps sound alike. I bet folks wouldn't even be able to tell that one of my amps (a hybrid) sounds totally solid-state. I know I probably wouldn't be able to either in a blind test. I've recently listened to a solid-state amp, the DSHA-1, that I would almost think is a tube amp.
 

---

 
I've been sitting on the sidelines reading a lot of misconceptions and I can stand it no longer. Folks should stop spouting misinformation, referring to other nonsensical posts, musings, or theoretical masturbations on the differences between tube and solid state design, especially if people do not have direct experience with GOOD tube amps. Again, I repeat myself here: It all comes down to design and execution.
 
That being said, an Asus STX (which I am familiar with because I used to have one) is perfectly fine. Some people like Toyota Corollas, and they are just as effective from taking you from point A to point B as any other vehicle.

Well, even though I have tube amps and think I like what I hear as a tube sound, my Rudistor RP010B sounds what I think tubes so far have sounded like, so maybe everything I know is wrong.
It was the best amp on my former R10s and current Fostex TH900s, with great texture and a special kind of depth and warm fuzzy but clear at the same time sound (struggling for words here).
Still pretty much in awe of the Rudistor, with a unique sound that avoids fatigue on some phones prone to it, but still with lots of life. I just know what I hear here.

 

[extrabigmehdi]

Quote:

When measured in loopback mode using RMAA all the specs seem to be below audible thresholds, meaning it should be transparent.
(source)

Thanks for coming to the rescue. I've been told the most important specs are : frequency response , noise & distortion.
There's also the problem of impedance mismatch between source & headphone, but from what I've understood , the bigger the impedance, the easier it is to drive (if you don't take loudness in account). So there's no problem with the 300 ohm hd800 at all.

 

[poikkeus]

Quote:

Anyone ever worry about the slight color fading on the mesh of the HD800's. The outside of the code.
I have brushed agasint them a few times and they have a darker faded color than the edges (which are nice and silver). 

Is there a way to clean that up safely? Do I have to worry about it / will it impede the headphone?.

Loving the HD800 in every way though. The soundstage and how much it reveals is quite lovely.

The mesh is black, and believe it or not, lightly touching it up with black inkjet ink. If your ink lands on the wrong spot, wipe it up immediately. Try things out with a test area to make sure the color is what you want. On the other hand, the silver color is more difficult to manage; a thread on a subforum suggested that a silver Sharpie might work, but it's not the right shade of silver. I can't recommend that.
 
The best advice is to avoid abrading the HD800, if possible. Keep on a headphone hook to avoid wear. Hold the headphones from the black plastic stem, cushion, or foam ear pads, and avoid touching the black and silver body of the phones. I know this makes it seem they're delicate (they're not), but abrasion of the paint is the main thing to worry about. 
 
I've had mine for around three years, and they still look new. But the exterior of the HD800 is painted plastic, not metal, so take care.