[rodentmacbeastie]

I just realized that the Oppo 970HD universal player can send a SACD DSD converted to PCM digital signal out of the HDMI output. If the signal is converted to PCM before it leaves the player, should it not be usable buy outbourd 192khz DACs? All you should need to find out is which pins on the HDMI connector and mate them to one end your digital cable of choice and you favorite s/pdif connector on the other end. Or it may be possible to place your favorite s/pdif connector on the chassis of the Oppo and wire it internally to the HDMI board. If this would work, and I don't see why not, outboard DACs could be used with SACD. Whether the player's conversion screws up the sound I cannot say, but a reviewer hooked it up to his theatre processor and said the sound was "enticing."

OK guys, I want feedback on what you think. I may buy a second Oppo and try the mod if some of you more experienced modders could give me some insight.

Also, does anyone know which pins in a HDMI 1.1 carry the digital audio signal?

 

[music_man]

i do not see any reason why it would not work. if it sends pcm you can pick up the pins to a rca as you suggested. that is if it is true pcm. the hdmi spec may carry something different that is only recognized by a hdmi receiver ic and not a s/pdif receiver ic. you will have to get a hdmi white paper or just try it.

i will say that regardless of if it is sent as pcm through hdmi or any other type of connector you are by no means decoding true sacd. sacd cannot be decoded by the pcm carrier. this would be downconversion to redbook standard. i don't see why you would do that other than for compatibility reasons.

music_man

 

[infinitesymphony]

A handful of cheaper universal DVD players convert the DSD signal to PCM before it's processed. Pioneer's DV-578A-S, DV-588A-S, and new DV-696AV are some examples. I've seen a few tests that show conversion from DSD to PCM can result in better sound quality than a DAC that handles the raw DSD signal according to its specification.

 

[rodentmacbeastie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by music_man i do not see any reason why it would not work. if it sends pcm you can pick up the pins to a rca as you suggested. that is if it is true pcm. the hdmi spec may carry something different that is only recognized by a hdmi receiver ic and not a s/pdif receiver ic. you will have to get a hdmi white paper or just try it. i will say that regardless of if it is sent as pcm through hdmi or any other type of connector you are by no means decoding true sacd. sacd cannot be decoded by the pcm carrier. this would be downconversion to redbook standard. i don't see why you would do that other than for compatibility reasons. music_man

That is possible. The article, which I cannot find now, just stated the player internally converted it to PCM and not neccessarily 24/192 PCM. I figure that since you can send DVD-Audio PCM to an outboard DAC, this would be the case with the converted DSD signal. I guess the only way to find out is to try it or hope that Oppo will give me the low down. I will email them right now.

 

[rodentmacbeastie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by infinitesymphony A handful of cheaper universal DVD players convert the DSD signal to PCM before it's processed. Pioneer's DV-578A-S, DV-588A-S, and new DV-696AV are some examples. I've seen a few tests that show conversion from DSD to PCM can result in better sound quality than a DAC that handles the raw DSD signal according to its specification.

I don't think it converts the signal in the player for it's analog outs, only the HDMI digital signal path. This is done so that if the player is connected to a receiver with only the HDMI you can still listen to SACD. If this was their intentions it would make sense as well that the signal wouold be converted to the same sample rate of the SACD. Otherwise, the only benefit of doing this is for poor and deaf people who cannot afford a pair of interconnects for the SACD alone and their extremely crappy system sounds soooo bad that even if they use the analog outs, they can not hear the difference. The deaf catagory explains itself! LOL! The review said that the HDMI SACD performance was nearly as good as a Denon 5900 player with the same SACD and using it's own analog outs to the same Yamaha receiver. The Yamaha receiver rules out the idea that they had the Oppo hooked up to a mega dollar DAC. They also said that the Oppo and Denon analog outs were very, very close. Sounds

 

[music_man]

you are asking the wrong person here. i find multi channel an impressive novelty. i do my listening in 2 or 2.1.

i cannot comment because i have not heard it. if the $149 oppo makes anything sound like it does on the $1,700 denon 5900 i'll get one too. what were you mentioning about deaf folks? haha.

music_man

 

[infinitesymphony]

Ah, sorry, I temporarily forgot that SACD isn't allowed over digital output without encryption. Even with encryption, it's often converted to PCM before transmission, since not many receivers have built-in DSD decoders. Most players that do DSD to PCM conversion output the PCM stream at 24-bit / 88.2 kHz. Getting at the converted signal is the problem, which you may have solved with the Oppo player. Some people with the aforementioned Pioneer players have been able to tap into the digital stream before it hits the DAC and obtained the signal that way (they don't have HDMI, excepting the 696AV).

For some reason, I thought players that converted DSD to PCM could output the converted PCM stream via their digital outputs. I guess it's a SACD thing. Some DVD-Audio discs force downsampling over digital output, but with SACD it seems that nothing can go over a non-propriety (i.e. non-Firewire) digital output.

Perhaps the Oppo allows it because HDMI is an encrypted standard. If that's the case, the PCM stream might not be pure, as music_man hinted.

 

[music_man]

to protect it they would only have to change one data bit. if they were doing that i think they would obviously take it even further. picking up the pins from the hdmi would be very easy. it just depends if you want to spend the $149 to find out if it is protected or not. you emailed oppo? i kind of doubt they are going to provide that information. let us know.

music_man

 

[rodentmacbeastie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by music_man to protect it they would only have to change one data bit. if they were doing that i think they would obviously take it even further. picking up the pins from the hdmi would be very easy. it just depends if you want to spend the $149 to find out if it is protected or not. you emailed oppo? i kind of doubt they are going to provide that information. let us know. music_man

I was pretty obscure about my questions for that reason. I hope they can still understand what I want to know? I basically asked them if it was transmitted at the same bit/sampling rate and inquires about theatre, mixer DAC, and headphone DAC/amp. I explained that I wanted to use three DACsand needed another digital output. I also explained that my theatre is a front projector and I do not use a HDMI receiver thus needing to split the cable to run the video to my projector and the digital audio to my receiver. I hope this elusive BS pays off on spades. Also, I founf the original audioholics.com review and email the testing writer and he says,

"Hi David,

Thanks for the email. No, you cannot convert HDMI to S/PDIF by hotwiring it.
Bottom line is someone has to do the DA conversion. It will either be the player (analogue outputs) or the receiver. A high quality outboard DAC would be (in this case) something that could strip off the audio from HDMI and convert it to analogue.

Have a great week!"

I was upfront and clear with him but he still got the idea that I wanted analog from the HDMI. His correction and explanation answered my question though. But yes, one bit out and the signal would be screwed. That said, it in unlikely that if the Oppo is sending a 24/192khz PCM signal that they would alter it because the receiving receiver(he he) would have to have the PCM conversion for the DVD-Audio. Does this make sense to you?

 

[rodentmacbeastie]

This is what Oppo replied, numbers seem strange though.



David,

The DSD is converted to 88.1Khz/24-bit PCM.

Best Regards,

Customer Service
OPPO Digital, Inc.
453 Ravendale Dr, Suite D
Mountain View, CA 94043

 

[soundboy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodentmacbeastie This is what Oppo replied, numbers seem strange though. David, The DSD is converted to 88.1Khz/24-bit PCM. Best Regards, Customer Service OPPO Digital, Inc. 453 Ravendale Dr, Suite D Mountain View, CA 94043

Should be 88.2KHz.....and the conversion is done whether it's outputting using the HDMI or analog outputs.

 

[rodentmacbeastie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by soundboy Should be 88.2KHz.....and the conversion is done whether it's outputting using the HDMI or analog outputs.

88.1 is what the email said. Why would a 24/192KHz SACD be converted to 88.2 when using the analog out?

 

[Sleestack]

I have a transport that sends DSD via dual AES or iLink to its outboard DAC.

 

[rodentmacbeastie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleestack I have a transport that sends DSD via dual AES or iLink to its outboard DAC.

What, the Esoteric? If that is what you are talking about we are not on the same page. The interest is using a $150 DVD to send SACD converted to PCM to your favorite 24/192khz DAC. In my case I am looking at the Oppo to the Presonus Central Station for a grand total of $600, not $26000! I know there are a few trans/DAC combo that do the SACD thing but they have to be purchased as a pair and cost more than some cars. The idea is a simple connector mod may allow the other 97% of the population to experiment with SACD through external DACs like the Citypulse, Zhaolu, Presonus CS, Stello...

I mean If I had $26000 to spend on a front end, it would mean that I would be able to afford hiring my own engineers to build me my dream system! LOL! I would simply take to my favorite jazz culb and concert venues and say, "do it!" Then get on my two million dollar yacht via personal helicopter, and rock the boat with my $200000 boat system all the while being surrounded by the types of women that thick bread attracts! After having Michael Schumacher over for dinner of the coast of Monte Carlo, he and I would talk about starting our new formula 1 team.

OK, I went overboard(he he, a pun), but you get the point. For us mere mortals that make up 97% of the population and take home(not that it really ever gets home) 5% of the wealth, the Esoteric stuff is of dreams and legends... and quite frankly even if my annual salary did have six zeros, I would retire and hang out in jazz clubs and be in bed with sexy ladies the rest of the time. Hell, with the kind of women that kind of money attracts, I may not make it to the clubs anymore than I do now! LOL!

I am frickn' crazy for even thinking about a Modwright SACD player. It is worth more than my current assets, it has been a very rough year!

 

[soundboy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodentmacbeastie 88.1 is what the email said. Why would a 24/192KHz SACD be converted to 88.2 when using the analog out?

That's the response I received from Oppo. I asked whether the 970 downconvert DSD to 88.2 KHz when using analog outputs and the answer was "yes".

Other DSD>>>PCM downconcerting uni players such as those from Pioneer does the conversion as well when using the analog outputs.