[haloxt]

Imo source is more important than amp. I have often swapped between SE and balanced on the phoenix while inputting from SE dac19mk3, and there's no pockets or empty spaces in the soundstage when you listen to SE from phoenix (which Kingwa says is similar to C2), but with balanced there is of course faster speed and soundstage size and sounds pretty good with my dac19mk3 rca and dac9mk3 rca (probably more so with dac19df or dac19dsp with acss). I have also tried some lower dac's like compass dac and my iriver h120 line out with the phoenix and balanced headphones, which is a very bad idea. The best would be to make sure your dac and amp are on the same level, or at least not so different in sound quality as to make the amp reveal dac flaws, or dac to be choked by amp. But whether that marantz receiver has a sufficient dac to utilize the soundstage of C2 or roc I have no idea, maybe someone with insight into this could tell us.

 

[BigMango]

 
Quote:

Imo source is more important than amp. I have often swapped between SE and balanced on the phoenix while inputting from SE dac19mk3, and there's no pockets or empty spaces in the soundstage when you listen to SE from phoenix (which Kingwa says is similar to C2), but with balanced there is of course faster speed and soundstage size and sounds pretty good with my dac19mk3 rca and dac9mk3 rca (probably more so with dac19df or dac19dsp with acss). I have also tried some lower dac's like compass dac and my iriver h120 line out with the phoenix and balanced headphones, which is a very bad idea. The best would be to make sure your dac and amp are on the same level, or at least not so different in sound quality as to make the amp reveal dac flaws, or dac to be choked by amp. But whether that marantz receiver has a sufficient dac to utilize the soundstage of C2 or roc I have no idea, maybe someone with insight into this could tell us.

That's some good feedback.
 
As for another experience with some "lower dacs"; while waiting for my Ref5 to arrive I have also used the Roc with the rca inputs from the Playstation 3. I was surprised the PS3 had such a good dac, it was beautiful (with the rca Roc it was better than via toslink on my Sony receiver). The HD650 balanced were much better than SE.
 
After this experiment with the PS3 as source I can't see why anyone would want to miss out so much by "under-powering" their Sen HD6xx series in SE mode. (but as haxlot said, depending on the source your mileage may probably vary).

 

[pategen]

Quote:

 

If the question is about "being done for a while", with headphones like the HD600, why would you chose the C2 at all when for 70$ more you have the Roc which is a fully balanced amp?
 
I have the Roc (with the ref5 and the HD650), but even with non-balanced sources the soundstage improvements are huge when the HD650 are powered in balanced mode (the roc transforms SE signals into balanced - powering the Sens as they were meant to be).
 
IMO, if you can't afford a balanced Dac I would at least take the Roc. With these kinds of headphones even with the Dac19 as a source (or any other SE source) it will definitely give you more pleasure (it did for me). And if you don't plan to balance your HD600 yet, you can still use them on the roc's SE output. At least, for that mere 70 bucks you will be ready for your future upgrade path.

Excuse my simplicity, but where can you find a Roc for just 70$ more than the C-2?
 
I'm not here to critizise balanced headphones and amps, but I really wouldn't say that a balanced amp is "powering the Sens as they were meant to be". As far as I'm aware, Sennheiser only delivers SE cabled phones. Going balanced is not a step I would necessarily recommend to someone considering using an AV amp as a DAC/amp, even with Sennheisers with their recabling-friendly cables. For SE use, a SE amp is the right choice IMHO.

 

[BigMango]

 
Quote:

Excuse my simplicity, but where can you find a Roc for just 70$ more than the C-2?
 
I'm not here to critizise balanced headphones and amps, but I really wouldn't say that a balanced amp is "powering the Sens as they were meant to be". As far as I'm aware, Sennheiser only delivers SE cabled phones. Going balanced is not a step I would necessarily recommend to someone considering using an AV amp as a DAC/amp, even with Sennheisers with their recabling-friendly cables. For SE use, a SE amp is the right choice IMHO.

Yes, the Roc is 70$ more than the dac19, sorry. 2x the price of the C2, but still that isn't much, is it?
 
For me, the ability to use the HD650 in balanced mode (with or without balanced source) is worth 1000$ alone. To me it makes at least that much of a difference.
 
From your comment I guess that you have never listened to a HD6x series headphone in balanced mode. You should try it out.
 
And of course, balanced only makes sense if going with an amp like the Roc. When using the AV amp you would obviously put the original jack back .

 

[pategen]

Quote:

 

Yes, the Roc is 70$ more than the dac19, sorry. 2x the price of the C2, but still that isn't much, is it?
 
For me, the ability to use the HD650 in balanced mode (with or without balanced source) is worth 1000$ alone. To me it makes at least that much of a difference.
 
From your comment I guess that you have never listened to a HD6x series headphone in balanced mode. You should try it out.
 
And of course, going balanced only makes sense if going with an amp like the Roc. When using the AV amp you would obviously put the original jack back .

 
I haven't heard balanced Sennheisers. I can see the benefit in theory, but wouldn't say it is the only way to go. SE can still be very good and there's no denying that going balanced is considered as something for quite advanced headphone users. My point is that it's quite a jump going from AV amp to balanced. Many, many headphone addicts don't ever get to balanced. I, for one, can't see myself there. Not when SE sounds this good...
 

 

[FauDrei]

Quote:

 
That's some good feedback.
 
As for another experience with some "lower dacs"; while waiting for my Ref5 to arrive I have also used the Roc with the rca inputs from the Playstation 3. I was surprised the PS3 had such a good dac, it was beautiful (with the rca Roc it was better than via toslink on my Sony receiver). The HD650 balanced were much better than SE.
 
After this experiment with the PS3 as source I can't see why anyone would want to miss out so much by "under-powering" their Sen HD6xx series in SE mode. (but as haxlot said, depending on the source your mileage may probably vary).

Yes, Roc really make HD600 "behave". Especially if you reterminate HD600 for balanced operation.
 
Take note though that the source is either limiting factor or "the star of the show". Roc does not add or subtract anything. This "feat" made me unhappy with all sources I've had at the time.

 

[lgm1]

 
Quote:

It seems that nobody has compared the 2 side by side. So the only thing left to us is speculating.
The Marantz is an AV receiver with a lot of things going on inside. The cost (and attention) dedicated to the dac and headamp section will probably be low.
My personal guess is that it wouldn't perform as well against a dedicated source and amp combo.
The question would be: is it worth the $1000+ investment? If you do a lot of headphone listening, the answer would be yes. If you do it occasionally, the answer might be no.

 
Thank you for your candid response.  
 
I enjoy headphone listening quite a bit, but I honestly don't use my HD 600s as much as I would like (the headphone out on the Onkyo the Marantz replaced wasn't good and I've mostly been listening to my 2 channel setup since the switch).  I would certainly listen to my headphones a lot more with this Audio-gd combination, but how much I'm not entirely sure.

 
Quote:

I haven't tried the SR8002, but I know a thing or two about it. The most important thing to notice is the headphone out, which has an output impedance of 400 ohms or so. With the HD600, this will result in a very noticeable bass boost. The Denons would not have this quantity problem because of their very flat impedance curve, but the bass quality could still suffer. I have a Marantz stereo amp myself (PM-15S1) which has a similar headphone output with a high output impedance. I do not and will not listen to my AKGs using it, since my phones have the same kind of variations in their impedance curve as the HD600. The result is a clearly audible frequency balance problem.
 
The DAC in the SR8002 might be enough for casual headphone listening, but the amp IMHO is not. You would get a big improvement just getting a dedicated headphone amp and using the SR8002 as a DAC, but if you want to be set for a potentially very long time, it's easy for me to recommed the DAC19/C2 combo. You have some very good headphones that according to the comments on this forum have good synergy with the Audio-gds, so I would go for it and be done for a while.
 

Thank you Pategen. This is exactly the kind of advice I hoped to receive. 
 
I honestly don't have experience with high quality dedicated headphone amps to use as a basis of comparison (most of my headphone/IEM listening experience is via DAPs which is obviously a different value proposition), but I was surprised that the Marantz headphone out is as good as it is (I was expecting crap).  Next time I listen, I will focus more on the bass and the overall frequency balance.
 
Your recommendation also falls in line with my thought process.  If I'm going to become a little more serious about headphone listening, my goal is to find a setup that doesn't leave me wanting more and will also last for several years.  This Audio-gd combination appears to offer a nice price/performance sweet spot.  Owners are clearly happy. 
 
The balanced versus SE setup others have mentioned is a very interesting discussion.  For my purposes, I'm not full of conviction I will become immersed enough in the passion/hobby of headphone listening to convince me to take the next step up to a fully balanced system. 
 
I figure a fully balanced system would likely cost twice the price upfront, plus then I would likely want to buy HD 800s and Denon D7000s (or equivalent) to get more out of the system.  And I would also want better cabling and interconnects.  And then there are all of the various modifications.  Pretty soon I am way up there in my headphone investment.  I don't mind so much if it ultimately matters that much to me, but as you referenced, I am nowhere close to this state of mind based on my experience, knowledge and critical listening skills - and also my current perception of value. 
 
The Roc is clearly a nice amp and I have little doubt I would really enjoy it, but it is also likely the gateway to a fully balanced system and the added expense that comes along with it.  If I thought I had the discipline to be satisfied with only the ROC and a re-terminated HD 600 for balanced operation, then maybe. But how could one not ultimately follow the complete fully balanced upgrade path once the process starts?  The next upgrade would always be too tempting in my case.
 
Anyway, I genuinely appreciate the response and the discussion.  It is helpful.
 
 
I'm going to try to learn more about Cirrus Logic CS4382A: http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/proDatasheet/CS4382A_F2.pdf, but I think I'm sold on Audio-gd, both amp and dac.
 
 

 

[vlach]

Like you, i belong to the "value" camp of this headphone hobby and i agree going fully balanced, recabling, etc. would trigger the desire for top of the line headphones too and in the end the cost would rise exponentially compared to maximizing/exhausting the RCA option.
 
My C2 will be delivered any minute and will be coupled to my DAC19mklll (DF1704) via RCA feeding Denons D2000. I will post my initial impressions shortly.
 
Quote:

 
 
Thank you for your candid response.  
 
I enjoy headphone listening quite a bit, but I honestly don't use my HD 600s as much as I would like (the headphone out on the Onkyo the Marantz replaced wasn't good and I've mostly been listening to my 2 channel setup since the switch).  I would certainly listen to my headphones a lot more with this Audio-gd combination, but how much I'm not entirely sure.

 

Thank you Pategen. This is exactly the kind of advice I hoped to receive. 
 
I honestly don't have experience with high quality dedicated headphone amps to use as a basis of comparison (most of my headphone/IEM listening experience is via DAPs which is obviously a different value proposition), but I was surprised that the Marantz headphone out is as good as it is (I was expecting crap).  Next time I listen, I will focus more on the bass and the overall frequency balance.
 
Your recommendation also falls in line with my thought process.  If I'm going to become a little more serious about headphone listening, my goal is to find a setup that doesn't leave me wanting more and will also last for several years.  This Audio-gd combination appears to offer a nice price/performance sweet spot.  Owners are clearly happy. 
 
The balanced versus SE setup others have mentioned is a very interesting discussion.  For my purposes, I'm not full of conviction I will become immersed enough in the passion/hobby of headphone listening to convince me to take the next step up to a fully balanced system. 
 
I figure a fully balanced system would likely cost twice the price upfront, plus then I would likely want to buy HD 800s and Denon D7000s (or equivalent) to get more out of the system.  And I would also want better cabling and interconnects.  And then there are all of the various modifications.  Pretty soon I am way up there in my headphone investment.  I don't mind so much if it ultimately matters that much to me, but as you referenced, I am nowhere close to this state of mind based on my experience, knowledge and critical listening skills - and also my current perception of value. 
 
The Roc is clearly a nice amp and I have little doubt I would really enjoy it, but it is also likely the gateway to a fully balanced system and the added expense that comes along with it.  If I thought I had the discipline to be satisfied with only the ROC and a re-terminated HD 600 for balanced operation, then maybe. But how could one not ultimately follow the complete fully balanced upgrade path once the process starts?  The next upgrade would always be too tempting in my case.
 
Anyway, I genuinely appreciate the response and the discussion.  It is helpful.
 
 
I'm going to try to learn more about Cirrus Logic CS4382A: http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/proDatasheet/CS4382A_F2.pdf, but I think I'm sold on Audio-gd, both amp and dac.
 
 

 

[haloxt]

What matters more than the price tag is what you want out of your system. For some audiophiles a good mp3 player+amp and good headphones is all they need, and I often fit into this group depending on my mood. I actually think a majority of people just want the fun factor of music, without all the minute details, nuances, and character behind instruments/voices that make a lifelike reproduction, and they just need something fun and unfatiguing which can be had for a few hundred dollars or less. If you have a taste for high fidelity though, sorry for your wallet .

 

[FauDrei]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lgm1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
The balanced versus SE setup others have mentioned is a very interesting discussion.  For my purposes, I'm not full of conviction I will become immersed enough in the passion/hobby of headphone listening to convince me to take the next step up to a fully balanced system. 
 
I figure a fully balanced system would likely cost twice the price upfront, plus then I would likely want to buy HD 800s and Denon D7000s (or equivalent) to get more out of the system.  And I would also want better cabling and interconnects.  And then there are all of the various modifications.  Pretty soon I am way up there in my headphone investment.  I don't mind so much if it ultimately matters that much to me, but as you referenced, I am nowhere close to this state of mind based on my experience, knowledge and critical listening skills - and also my current perception of value. 
 
The Roc is clearly a nice amp and I have little doubt I would really enjoy it, but it is also likely the gateway to a fully balanced system and the added expense that comes along with it.  If I thought I had the discipline to be satisfied with only the ROC and a re-terminated HD 600 for balanced operation, then maybe. But how could one not ultimately follow the complete fully balanced upgrade path once the process starts?  The next upgrade would always be too tempting in my case.

Quote:

Like you, i belong to the "value" camp of this headphone hobby and i agree going fully balanced, recabling, etc. would trigger the desire for top of the line headphones too and in the end the cost would rise exponentially compared to maximizing/exhausting the RCA option.

Quote:

What matters more than the price tag is what you want out of your system. For some audiophiles a good mp3 player+amp and good headphones is all they need, and I often fit into this group depending on my mood. I actually think a majority of people just want the fun factor of music, without all the minute details, nuances, and character behind instruments/voices that make a lifelike reproduction, and they just need something fun and unfatiguing which can be had for a few hundred dollars or less. If you have a taste for high fidelity though, sorry for your wallet .

Everything true... so true.
 
I've started with just a solid CD player and good full size headphones, both acquired by accident. Back then I've used to filter out work colleagues with earbuds through CD-ROM audio outs. The recorded music dimensions that this first player/phone pair revealed to me was breathtaking. I've spent nights rediscovering my CD library (which those days consisted of 20-25 CDs)... and intermittently evolved from there.
 
Now, 650 CDs and 15 years later headphones still make me tap along but my headphone (and audio in general) expectations have risen. I do still enjoy my iPod with good in-ears but for my night listening sessions I want more. Much more. And this takes time... and money. Some wasted, some wisely invested.
 
Looking back, if I had the opportunity to have current top headphone system directly from the start without searching, evaluating, matching, DIY-ing, guessing, missing... that I've went through over the years - I would kindly reject the opportunity. There are some things on this path that you have to experience in first person. Like the first listen through good open circumaurals, first headamp that ideally complements your favorite phone, discovery of "class A sound", first balanced retermination/recabling of your reference phone, first listen to orthos/electrostats... beside determining your preferences, it makes you appreciate better and enjoy more your current headphile phase.
 
So guys, enjoy your journey.
 
P.S.
lgm1, wise and well argumented Roc decision.

 

[fromatoz]

burson opamp arrived today.

what a surprise: no muffled, but very dynamic, full-bodied, warm and mellow sounding music flowing through the rca connection. now the acss connection almost feels anaemic ... well, let's see, no, listen again tomorrow.

楽しみ。

 

[vlach]

 
Quote:

burson opamp arrived today.

what a surprise: no muffled, but very dynamic, full-bodied, warm and mellow sounding music flowing through the rca connection. now the acss connection almost feels anaemic ... well, let's see, no, listen again tomorrow.

楽しみ。

Interesting, let us know your thoughts with further listening time.
 
My C2 arrived yesterday (with 100 hours of burn in according to the Audio-GD website). Out of the box it sounded very, very good with the stock opamps. All i have for direct comparison is a Little Dot MK lll. The C2 is definitely more articulate, resolved, open, clear, has better separation and is generally more developed in comparison. The LD rolls off the lows & highs sooner creating an interesting midrange effect, vocals in particular have a somewhat warmer body & nice texture, however the C2 has a much more balanced presentation and is noticeably more revealing. Switching to the earth opamps (with no burn in), the top end seemed less extended than with the stock opamps. I went back & forth a few times and actually prefer the stock opamps, i find them more dynamic...go figure. My Denons are now standing tall! I'm very happy with the purchase.
 
Edit: It should be said that at the asking price, the LD is a very capable amp and represents a remarkable value. The C2 is in a different league altogether.
 

 

[cheaphifi]

Quote:

Anybody experimented with the DAC 19 DSP DIP switches?

The flexibility and bypass of the DSP with the PCM1704uk DACs is one of the very desirable combined features that made me quickly decide to jump into purchasing this DAC. I'm sourcing it with an Emprical Audio Off Ramp 3 on a computer server. It's a very high quality, 24 bit low jitter SPDIF source that should fare very well with the DSP bypassed. (Although I haven't gotten that far.) The DAC 19 arrived yesterday and it's been running in my system for about 4 hours as I write this. I've left the DIP switches at default for the time being. I intend to let the system run for at least a week before I begin experimenting.

I barely had it out of the box and the cover removed when I began to imagine how wonderful it would be to have a complete Audio-gd system. This is serious, majestic, beautiful hardware.

 
Do you know where can I find informations about DSP-1 Dip switches ?
I have a Dac-19 DSP too, and i would try NOS mode.

 

[lgm1]

 
Quote:

 
My C2 arrived yesterday (with 100 hours of burn in according to the Audio-GD website). Out of the box it sounded very, very good with the stock opamps. All i have for direct comparison is a Little Dot MK lll. The C2 is definitely more articulate, resolved, open, clear, has better separation and is generally more developed in comparison. The LD rolls off the lows & highs sooner creating an interesting midrange effect, vocals in particular have a somewhat warmer body & nice texture, however the C2 has a much more balanced presentation and is noticeably more revealing. Switching to the earth opamps (with no burn in), the top end seemed less extended than with the stock opamps. I went back & forth a few times and actually prefer the stock opamps, i find them more dynamic...go figure. My Denons are now standing tall! I'm very happy with the purchase.
 
Edit: It should be said that at the asking price, the LD is a very capable amp and represents a remarkable value. The C2 is in a different league altogether.
 

Congratulations.  Another Audio-gd C2 owner, another happy customer.  Makes me want to join the club.

 
Quote:

Everything true... so true.
 
I've started with just a solid CD player and good full size headphones, both acquired by accident. Back then I've used to filter out work colleagues with earbuds through CD-ROM audio outs. The recorded music dimensions that this first player/phone pair revealed to me was breathtaking. I've spent nights rediscovering my CD library (which those days consisted of 20-25 CDs)... and intermittently evolved from there.
 
Now, 650 CDs and 15 years later headphones still make me tap along but my headphone (and audio in general) expectations have risen. I do still enjoy my iPod with good in-ears but for my night listening sessions I want more. Much more. And this takes time... and money. Some wasted, some wisely invested.
 
Looking back, if I had the opportunity to have current top headphone system directly from the start without searching, evaluating, matching, DIY-ing, guessing, missing... that I've went through over the years - I would kindly reject the opportunity. There are some things on this path that you have to experience in first person. Like the first listen through good open circumaurals, first headamp that ideally complements your favorite phone, discovery of "class A sound", first balanced retermination/recabling of your reference phone, first listen to orthos/electrostats... beside determining your preferences, it makes you appreciate better and enjoy more your current headphile phase.
 
So guys, enjoy your journey.
 
P.S.
lgm1, wise and well argumented Roc decision.

Very interesting read.  Thank you for sharing your journey. 

 

[transient orca]

Anybody tried DAC-19 on Stax systems?