[hudamanium]

Random tangent (on the prices). I bought my HD25 II for $140. If you're patient you can snag them at a good price. Makes it an extremely affordable portable to carry around! 

 

[Raguvian]

I really want to hear the M80 and the DT1350.
 
Looking forward to seeing how the M80 and TMA-1 stack up to the rest.

 

[roma101]

Quote:

 
See post #5 for some brief thoughts on instruments.
 

Read that post but I was more interested to know which headphone produces the most authentic sound/timbre overall, in your opinion. Especially with whatever genre you throw at it.  

 

[Armaegis]

Quote:

Read that post but I was more interested to know which headphone produces the most authentic sound/timbre overall, in your opinion. Especially with whatever genre you throw at it.  

The instruments I mentioned for each headphone in that post would be the ones I feel were reproduced the most authentically... which generally corresponds to the most pronounced and flat range on that particular headphone.
 
As long as the frequency response of a headphone is relatively flat within the range of the instrument in question (plus an octave up/down for harmonics), it should sound "right". The Pioneer has great midbass, the DT1350 owns the midrange, the T50p the treble. But nearing the treble area is where it becomes wildly different for people because while the bass and mids are usually heard the same by everyone, treble peaks are highly dependent on the individual ear shape/age/etc. To me, the DT1350 treble is wobbly and sibilant while the T50p is relatively flat, whereas my friend finds the DT1350 much smoother than the T50p.
 
I'll run through some more focused instrumental listening next time I get some time and make a few more notes. Are there any particular instruments you would like me to listen for?

 
Quote:

Random tangent (on the prices). I bought my HD25 II for $140. If you're patient you can snag them at a good price. Makes it an extremely affordable portable to carry around! 

I'm just going to stick to the "regular" prices for now. The HD25 deals on Amazon have been crazy lately (though several people have also been getting the SP version isntead).
 

 

[DigitalFreak]

Quote:

Seriously? I mean sure they're really good in a few spots, but certainly not the end-all-be-all. I'm curious if those opinions were formed before or after Tyll and Mike/headfonia and Joker posted their reviews.

If you look around I started a DT1350 fan boy thread. It's died over the last few weeks but some of the posts in the beginning were quite amusing. The DT1350 is one of those headphones that the person either loves to death of just can't stand it. Last time we met we quickly discussed some of the DT's finer and weak points. For me I love how it does vocals (you showed me an example from your music of how great it does vocals) and I love how the snare drum sounds on them.  Personally I love to death how my jazz sounds on it. That being said I'll be the first to admit that the guitars sound off on some of my more heavier metal songs. In my opinion the problem with the Beyer in the metal genre is although the mids are quite good the overall tonality coupled with it's lean sound doesn't lend well to the screaming and crunching guitar riffs for bands like Arch Enemy or Quo Vadis. In Flames seems to work not to badly Insomnium is a hit and miss affair. Doom metal such as older Black Sabbath it works quite well because doom is very laid back. The interesting thing about the DT 1350 is when you throw some straight up death metal at them the vocals which are growls and grunts sound quite good which surprised me considering death metal grunts have a tonality all to themselves. If you go to metalcore the screamo vocals used in that genre works quite well on the Beyer and the drums sound incredibly good on it. I showed you an example of how it does metalcore when we were having coffee not to long ago. Metalcore is very drum driven and in my opinion the Beyer brings out great percussion qualities in the music if it had a little more slam here and there it would be perfect. I've never heard a more natural snare drum done like the DT1350 does it. Another genre I tried throwing at it was industrial and that also sounds not to bad on it. I'm not a huge industrial fan so I can't comment whether or not if it sounds good with all the industrial sub genres but I can say it does bands such as Econoline Crush Frontline Assembly Stabbing Westward Nine Inch Nails KMFDM and Filter (Filter in particular) very well. Of coarse that's just my two cents my experience with different cans is quite limited compared to you and others on here.
 
Here man this is Filter try giving it a listen with the DT1350
 

 

[crinacle]

Great review. Lookin' forward to the TMA-1 vs HD25 shootout.

 

[MayaTlab]

Quote:

As long as the frequency response of a headphone is relatively flat within the range of the instrument in question (plus an octave up/down for harmonics), it should sound "right". The Pioneer has great midbass, the DT1350 owns the midrange, the T50p the treble. But nearing the treble area is where it becomes wildly different for people because while the bass and mids are usually heard the same by everyone, treble peaks are highly dependent on the individual ear shape/age/etc. To me, the DT1350 treble is wobbly and sibilant while the T50p is relatively flat, whereas my friend finds the DT1350 much smoother than the T50p.

I don't think frequency response is enough to know if a particular instrument will sound right or not. In addition to FR, I think there are other factors to consider including :
- speed : a speedy driver is likely to reproduce the attack of instruments much better. As an example, I really like one particular aspect of acoustic guitars on the two beyer : the "twang" / "Tzing" at the beginning of a note which is reproduced in all its intensity on these two phones.
- sense of "body" : although the DT 1350 has great speed, which makes it great with drums somehow, this "drum" performance is in my opinion let down by its lack of body.
- timber accuracy : maybe a product of housing design or driver tech, I don't know. But some flat measuring headphones may have poor timber accuracy - that's my opinion on the DT 1350 for example.
So I think all these aspects and maybe more conjugate to create a fidel retranscription of instruments. That's why I think it's wrong to say that for instance, the DT 1350 is bad with guitars. It will do some aspects of the guitar sound poorly, and some others great.
 

 

[Armaegis]

Well of course there are many factors beyond frequency response, but I'm merely speaking in generalities. A frequency response chart actually hides a good deal of impulse response within it (the "speed" for lack of a better word), which is why I said as long as the frequency response in that particular region is relatively flat, it should be fairly accurate as those two aspects tend to (usually) go together.
 
The sense of "body" is usually a function of decay, which is not shown on a frequency sweep but does on a waterfall plot (which Purrin et al have been doing marvelous work with here on the forums). With the exception of resonant peaks though, judging this by ear is difficult and is often mistaken for amplitude peaking instead. For casual listening, a bit of decay is good as it imparts that sense of body to the music. It's the "singing in the shower" effect where some resonance is pleasing to the ear. From a critical listening/studio standpoint, you want the fastest decay possible so that the headphones (or speaker) introduce a minimal amount of their character into the music being played, leaving only the acoustics and reflections from the recording itself.
 
This is why I said the Beyer DT1350 is good for well recorded music. It has a fast decay (indicative of good damping, though I would verge on saying it's overdamped in a few areas) and its midrange reproduction is excellent (I feel the lows are still too thin and the highs a little inconsistent though). Conversely, on production style music that doesn't have any inherent room acoustics captured in the recording, the DT1350 feels like the life has been sucked out because now it's just producing tones.

 

[Armaegis]

added a bunch of pics and graphs to post #2

 

[MayaTlab]

Oh, one thing : the T50p has been shipping for quite a long time now with the DT 1350 pads. In fact, the new pads replaced the older ones as far back as december 2010 I believe. The T50p also ships with the new Dt 1350's improved case since the latter's launch.
 
the new pads are supposed to modify seal and sound - so I suggest you swap them and give us our impressions - as they'll be more coherent with what new buyers will hear.

 

[audiogamma]

Great review! The first time I've read a shootout in which I've owned all the 'phones in question.

 

[Armaegis]

Quote:

Great review! The first time I've read a shootout in which I've owned all the 'phones in question.

Do my impressions match your own?

 

[NA Blur]

I found the 1350's really thin all around until I pressed on the earcups and created a better seal.  Holding them on my ears tightly made me hear what Tyll describes.  I found a very deep bass response and awesome midrange.  The fact that the 1350's did not seal well in a relaxed state is the primary reason why I did not purchase them.  Many headphones really have poor bass response ( amilitude, phase, and shape of the wave ) if they are too light.  I know Dave Rat did some testing with a pair of HD-280's and found that by pressing on the back of each earcup with a rigid object drastically improved the bass response.  It is hard for me to not think the same problem exists with the 1350's.  Perhaps Tyll was able to get a better fit and thus hear a more full sound from the 1350's.
 
I did see the absence of the 1350's charts above so I decided to include them here.  There is no question that on this test and this pair of 1350's the bass goes really deep at almost +5dB.  In fact they are pretty flat up to 1kHz which is quite nice.  I of course understand that the FR curve is not the whole picture, but there is no doubt that if the charts shows a +5db bass response from 5Hz up to 100Hz then this is what we should be hearing.  If that is not the case there is something that is different in our test vs the test Tyll did be it seal, amplification, or something else missed.

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicDT1350.pdf

 

[Armaegis]

Quote:

Oh, one thing : the T50p has been shipping for quite a long time now with the DT 1350 pads. In fact, the new pads replaced the older ones as far back as december 2010 I believe. The T50p also ships with the new Dt 1350's improved case since the latter's launch.
 
the new pads are supposed to modify seal and sound - so I suggest you swap them and give us our impressions - as they'll be more coherent with what new buyers will hear.

I poked around a bit but didn't see any obvious way to change the pads. Do they just snap out? As both the Beyers are loaners, I am not inclined to start pulling on things. 
 


Quote:

I found the 1350's really thin all around until I pressed on the earcups and created a better seal.  Holding them on my ears tightly made me hear what Tyll describes.  I found a very deep bass response and awesome midrange.  The fact that the 1350's did not seal well in a relaxed state is the primary reason why I did not purchase them.  Many headphones really have poor bass response ( amilitude, phase, and shape of the wave ) if they are too light.  I know Dave Rat did some testing with a pair of HD-280's and found that by pressing on the back of each earcup with a rigid object drastically improved the bass response.  It is hard for me to not think the same problem exists with the 1350's.  Perhaps Tyll was able to get a better fit and thus hear a more full sound from the 1350's.
 
I did see the absence of the 1350's charts above so I decided to include them here.  There is no question that on this test and this pair of 1350's the bass goes really deep at almost +5dB.  In fact they are pretty flat up to 1kHz which is quite nice.  I of course understand that the FR curve is not the whole picture, but there is no doubt that if the charts shows a +5db bass response from 5Hz up to 100Hz then this is what we should be hearing.  If that is not the case there is something that is different in our test vs the test Tyll did be it seal, amplification, or something else missed.

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicDT1350.pdf

 

I am familiar with the Dave Rat videos. It's a combination of mechanical coupling/mass loading which improves the bass response by removing enclosure vibration. A higher clamp in most cases should provide better response.
 
I tried all manners of pressing/headband/elastics/hat/etc to achieve proper seal. I agree that the bass does go deep, and as I said with test tones and sweeps the response was fantastic, but with music it just didn't have the same impact.
​

 

 

[VictorHalgaard]

Just went to a local hifi-store and heard the T50P...Uhm...It sounded sort of like two tin-cans on a string...And felt like the headband was made of that too. Compared to...Well...Almost any hifi can in their store it just seemed plain rubbish. Anyone else had that experience?