[Oliver :)]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarcusH *phew* thanks for clearing up.

Oh, of course you can still mess up!

 

[Oliver :)]

Not really. Them big Senns are sturdy, I regularly use mine while sleeping, and I sometimes do not sleep very well, and they just take it all. Defoamed.

 

[Yanomami]

One last comment. I love my cans but I'm also a speaker freak.

It is standard practice for many to remove the grilles from the front of speakers for a slightly brighter or forward presentation. Depends on ones taste, although manufacturers always insist that speakers (or headphones? in this case) are balanced for sound with the grilles on.

Personally, I indulge on the softer and deliciously warm sound of my HD600's/Corda HA-1 MkII combo (some may call that "darker"). Same goes for my Classe pre/power/CD and JMlab Electras...........always with foam pads / grilles on.....

It's all a matter of taste, whatever pleases your ears.

 

[ZOKROX]

Hmmmm...then adding foam will make the HD650 DARKER!

 

[luuk]

mm, I'm gonna give it a try to. Tomorrow that is, so that I can sneak in my mom's bedroom and steel some panty's. Or maybe I should just ask it, before they're thinking strange things about me

 

[jruser]

I just wanted to be cool so I removed the foam on my HD-25SP...
I sounds different, a little. I played back a mono track to both ears. One with foam, one without, and I blindfolded I could tell which one didn't have the foam.... It sounded like a piece of foam had been blocking my ears the entire time....

Seriously though, I think it altered the sound stage a somewhat for the better....

 

[taymat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenmorangie i just tried a quick test.....removed foam...didnt really hear a difference. i kept putting foam over my ears and then senns...removing it....putting it back while listening to various treble rich tracks (i dont think there is any difference having it between your ears and the pads or in place under the pads) i dont hear any change in treble at all and i find it hard to believe such thin open foam has the mass to alter or mute any sound at all.

I believe it doesn't they're just discussing what's is a change of mind. I've removed all the foam from the inside of many headphones, it doesn't make a difference. There's so much mis-information on the net, unlike a magazine the net doesn't have an editor!
The Sennheiser veil is caused by a dip at 5-6khz and a rolled off treble from about 16khz onward. Here's why the Sennheiser has a veil from an engineers guide I got off the net:
Around 16 kHz - Very high overtones. This region is the key to a sense of "air" and "liveliness" in your music. It also helps your ears detect exactly where things are placed in a mix.
Around 6 kHz - The brightness of a kick drum or bass guitar; the whispery quality of a vocal.
Around 5 kHz - The buzz of a snare drum; the presence of high-hats, guitars and female or child vocals. ("Presence" refers to how close to the listener things in a mix appear to be.)
and here's the graph for the Sennheiser hd-650's frequency response, courtesy of headroom:
http://graphs.headphone.com/index.ph...nnheiser+HD650
One of my favourites the hd595 has less veil, but it's still there.
I'm one of the pessimists when it comes to tweaks and tricks, I remember seeing a discussion on a car forum about strut braces and everyone's opinion on how they affected handling. In short only one guy knew what he was talking about and said they have no effect, except to reduce car body vibration. This is the power of the mind, pretty scary!

 

[applebook]

Most of us are well aware of the Senn dip in the upper-mid range, but the foams are completely external to this phenomenon --i.e. replacing/ removing the foams doesn't neccessarily not "brighten" up the sound that might be darkened a bit more by the thick padding.

 

[BushGuy]

Juser - I agree with your results re defoaming the 25-SP. Back ye olde' daes of bookshelf speakers - we regularly removed front baffles for the same reasons.
Thus far, recordings played demonstrate generally worthwhile changes. I'm thinking, right now that 25-1 can still use a little foam or maybe speaker gauze - maybe just cutting hole in center of foam.
So far opinion re k271s - no worthwhile difference.
" " " re k240s - yes, remove foam
...........each to his own de-foaming.....each to his own needs.

 

[Oliver :)]

Quote:

Originally Posted by applebook Most of us are well aware of the Senn dip in the upper-mid range, but the foams are completely external to this phenomenon --i.e. replacing/ removing the foams doesn't neccessarily not "brighten" up the sound that might be darkened a bit more by the thick padding.

Well said. Logically, You cannot "brighten up" the sound, you are just removing an obstacle to the sound as it is produced by the driver. On the contrary, you could argue that the sound is "produced" by the whole of the headphones and not only by the driver. Countless woody-fiers will agree

 

[Patu]

I finally decided to remove the foam and to cover the drivers with a pieces cut off from tights. Very nice...

 

[Andrea]

Quote:

Originally Posted by taymat I believe it doesn't they're just discussing what's is a change of mind. I've removed all the foam from the inside of many headphones, it doesn't make a difference. There's so much mis-information on the net, unlike a magazine the net doesn't have an editor! The Sennheiser veil is caused by a dip at 5-6khz and a rolled off treble from about 16khz onward. Here's why the Sennheiser has a veil from an engineers guide I got off the net: Around 16 kHz - Very high overtones. This region is the key to a sense of "air" and "liveliness" in your music. It also helps your ears detect exactly where things are placed in a mix. Around 6 kHz - The brightness of a kick drum or bass guitar; the whispery quality of a vocal. Around 5 kHz - The buzz of a snare drum; the presence of high-hats, guitars and female or child vocals. ("Presence" refers to how close to the listener things in a mix appear to be.) and here's the graph for the Sennheiser hd-650's frequency response, courtesy of headroom: http://graphs.headphone.com/index.ph...nnheiser+HD650 One of my favourites the hd595 has less veil, but it's still there. I'm one of the pessimists when it comes to tweaks and tricks, I remember seeing a discussion on a car forum about strut braces and everyone's opinion on how they affected handling. In short only one guy knew what he was talking about and said they have no effect, except to reduce car body vibration. This is the power of the mind, pretty scary!

Just btw-

There's no "roll off" in the upper treble, not in the 650 at least. On the contrary, treble extensions is a plus on all accounts -- seems that my ears can tell. This is entirely valid only if you listen to a "mature" HD650 with 200 or more hours burn in on it.

The (very small compared to other Senns like the 595) dip in the HD650's f.r. at 6 KHz is completely not found in Stereoplay's measurement, which insteads gives a practically flat line from just above 200Hz all the way up to 20KHz. All other phones tested there deviate from a straight line in one way or the other, DT880 included. And those measurements are especially more readable as far as upper treble response is concerned than Headroom's. Sorry, I have the image here but can't provide a link.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrea The (very small compared to other Senns like the 595) dip in the HD650's f.r. at 6 KHz is completely not found in Stereoplay's measurement, which insteads gives a practically flat line from just above 200Hz all the way up to 20KHz. All other phones tested there deviate from a straight line in one way or the other, DT880 included.

Are you claiming the HD650 is *not* diffuse-field equalized like the HD580 and HD600?

BTW, any headphone with a "straight line" graph all the way up to 20KHz would sound terrible. There are specific reasons for the higher frequency deviations you see on literally all of Headroom's graphs. Dunno what methodology Stereoplay used for measuring, but one could come up with some measurement technique to favor just about any headphone if that was the desired result.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by taymat I believe it doesn't they're just discussing what's is a change of mind. I've removed all the foam from the inside of many headphones, it doesn't make a difference. There's so much mis-information on the net, unlike a magazine the net doesn't have an editor!

Sure it makes a difference. Clearly audible (to my ears) as well as measurable.


Quote:

The Sennheiser veil is caused by a dip at 5-6khz and a rolled off treble from about 16khz onward.

That's too simplicistic an explanation and wrong with the roll-off. FR irregularities in the treble are absolutely normal and even a precondition for decently natural sound, as the HRTF (head-related transfer function) has to be taken into consideration, moreover there are different philosophies when it comes to equalization of headphones (free-field and diffuse-field equalization) which have everything to do with frequency response and a deviation from a straight line, and finally every ear shape is different, so you'll get different treble dips and spikes with the same headphone on your head than in HeadRoom's or Stereoplay's graphs. If you look at the latter...

...you'll find just a hint of a dip between 5 and 6 kHz, otherwise the curve is remarkably flat compared to the other measured headphones with more severe dips and particularly spikes. BTW, I remember an earlier HeadRoom measurement of the HD 650 with no dip at all between 5 and 6 kHz but an even deeper one around 8 kHz.

I've never heard a veil with Sennheisers, but concede that they're not entirely flat to my ears -- there's a treble smoothness which has a bit of an artificial quality, and there's a bass roll-off, both making for a slight midrange emphasis. But all in all, and tested with pink noise, the HD 650 is the least colored and most neutral dynamic headphone I've heard (maybe beside the HD 600) and has exceptionally good detail and resolution for such a relatively dark, unspectacular characteristic. Which to me is the opposite of a veil.

As to removing the foam pads: There's a beneficial and an adverse effect. What you gain in clarity you lose in accuracy and definition. The foam pads have the function to dampen multiple reflections between membrane and ear. If removed, transient response is corrupted. One of the negative effects therefrom to my ears is reduced depth of image. Nevertheless, there may be enough positive effects in the individual case to justify the modification, depending on the individual HRTF, the system and of course the individual perception and preference (not to forget the clamping force, which decides on bass intensity). I've been an advocate of this mod with the HD 600 before a source change, but with the HD 650 I perceive the effect as predominantly negative, as it increases the perceived midrange emphasis -- not least due to the bass drop-off that comes with it -- and makes the sound less refined, less defined and less 3-dimensional. YMMV.
.

 

[fewtch]

JaZZ, I must say I always find your posts enlightening... our audio philosophies are similar in many areas, and you're a very knowledgeable fellow.

BTW I like the HD650 and DT880 graphs the best of the bunch, if I were to choose headphones based solely on graphs

. DT880 takes the lower half of the spectrum, HD650 takes the upper half. If the two could be combined somehow...

DT770 is by far the ugliest of the bunch.