[Thelonious Monk]

well, i'm now within reach of my first vinyl setup. when i told my dad about it, he got sort of excited. you see, he sold his original Linn LP12 a long time ago, mainly because he thought that he couldn't really get any of his music on vinyl with the advent of the compact disc. now he's offering to chip in and possibly get me in the $1000+ range.

so, my question is this: does vinyl suffer from the dreaded downside of digital playback, which causes high-end sources to make bad recordings sound like absolute crap? i don't want to invest in a newer Linn TT or a Rega P5 if it's going to make most records i buy sound bad. and i'm going to mainly be buying VG/E condition records from local dealers, pawn shops & good will, not audiophile MSFL remasters of stuff. should i just go for the Rega P1/Goldring GR1? do better tonearms/styli/carts/phono stages make bad recordings sound... well, horrible?

thanks for the help in advance. i have no way of auditioning turntables whatsoever, and i don't want to buy a high-end tt+cart+tonearm just to be greeted by worse sound than i'd get out of something cheaper.

 

[Uncle Erik]

The downside isn't as steep as with Red Book. You'll find that, on the whole, vinyl is recorded much, much better than most CDs. You just aren't going to find the compression and other stuff that ruins so many modern recordings.

Also, you don't have to go in for the 180g audiophile pressings for good sound. You'll be surprised at what you find at the junk store. Just make sure that the record isn't scratched too badly and, most of all, clean your records. I picked up a used copy of "Brothers in Arms" (Dire Straits), just a regular pressing for $3. I cleaned it and did an A/B against the SACD version. The sound was excellent and, at times, I couldn't tell the difference between the two.

As for the tables you listed, you can't go wrong with those. They're great decks. My recommendation is to look at the used ones on Audiogon. You can save quite a bit and I'd use the extra money to buy a record cleaning machine. If you're going to buy used records, you'll need one.

 

[proglife]

Making bad recordings sound bad is what good audio equipment should do. If your main interest is making bad recordings sound good (which is perfectly fine), you need to introduce calculated distortions into your signal chain. You'll probably end up with lots of tubes and a rolled off, euphonic sound (which again, is fine if that's your thing).

I say go for it. I listen to a lot of small bands whose recording equipment is far from ideal and they often self release their own LPs. They rarely sound amazing because of the poor recording quality, but a bad recording on vinyl sounds way better to me than a bad recording in a cd player, but that's one guy's opinion.

If you have the means to get the P5 or Linn, absolutely go for it. You will not be disappointed.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thelonious Monk /img/forum/go_quote.gif well, i'm now within reach of my first vinyl setup. when i told my dad about it, he got sort of excited. you see, he sold his original Linn LP12 a long time ago, mainly because he thought that he couldn't really get any of his music on vinyl with the advent of the compact disc. now he's offering to chip in and possibly get me in the $1000+ range. .

I think your dad will be in for a shock to find how much a Linn Sondek LP12 costs these days. Might need to add a zero to your budget

Linn don't make cheaper turntables they just continually upgrade the LP12. They made a cheaper 'Basik' table in the early '90s which was comparable to a Rega but the less said about these the better.

You really can't mention Linn and Rega in the same breath in terms of performance so if he had an LP12 then the best bet would be to find another older spec one on Audiogon.

The other option would be a more modern turntable like the VPI Scout which has a very different sound to the Sondek. Many would say the Linn is very coloured compared to a table like the VPI whereas others would find modern tables a bit cold and uninvolving compared to the LP12.

This is really where turntables score over CD in the ability to tune the sound to your liking through tweaking various aspects of the set-up like the mat for instance.

I don't think I agree that good Hi-Fi should necessarily expose every aspect of a bad recording such as to make it unlistenable. This is the job of studio monitoring equipment rather than domestic Hi-Fi.

It's all well and good to aim for fidelity to the source (master tape) but it depends greatly on what kind of music you are talking about. There is a huge difference between fidelity to an open reel analogue recording of a live string quartet through crossed mics and fidelity to a piece of music created mixed and mastered without ever leaving a computer which is true of a lot more music made today than most people seem to realise whether the chosen interface is a guitar or a keyboard.

Hi-fi should be able to connect the listener to the artist on an emotional level through the medium of music whether the artist was a violinist or a sculptor of sound in metasynth. If it gives you greater insight into the recording then that's all well and good but it shouldn't do so at the expense all else.

 

[Thelonious Monk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif The downside isn't as steep as with Red Book. You'll find that, on the whole, vinyl is recorded much, much better than most CDs. You just aren't going to find the compression and other stuff that ruins so many modern recordings. Also, you don't have to go in for the 180g audiophile pressings for good sound. You'll be surprised at what you find at the junk store. Just make sure that the record isn't scratched too badly and, most of all, clean your records. I picked up a used copy of "Brothers in Arms" (Dire Straits), just a regular pressing for $3. I cleaned it and did an A/B against the SACD version. The sound was excellent and, at times, I couldn't tell the difference between the two. As for the tables you listed, you can't go wrong with those. They're great decks. My recommendation is to look at the used ones on Audiogon. You can save quite a bit and I'd use the extra money to buy a record cleaning machine. If you're going to buy used records, you'll need one.

i'm definitely going to be getting some sort of record cleaning system, and of course new inner sleeves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by proglife /img/forum/go_quote.gif Making bad recordings sound bad is what good audio equipment should do. If your main interest is making bad recordings sound good (which is perfectly fine), you need to introduce calculated distortions into your signal chain. You'll probably end up with lots of tubes and a rolled off, euphonic sound (which again, is fine if that's your thing). I say go for it. I listen to a lot of small bands whose recording equipment is far from ideal and they often self release their own LPs. They rarely sound amazing because of the poor recording quality, but a bad recording on vinyl sounds way better to me than a bad recording in a cd player, but that's one guy's opinion. If you have the means to get the P5 or Linn, absolutely go for it. You will not be disappointed.

yeah, i'm more of the type to "color" my sound anyways. i just need to better educate myself in the art of analog synergy; tube rolling, picking the right cart, etc... for reference, my favorite cans are Grados, which aren't particularly revealing save the HP1000 and GS1000, and i'm definitely more of a rock/metal/blues/jazz kinda guy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think your dad will be in for a shock to find how much a Linn Sondek LP12 costs these days. Might need to add a zero to your budget Linn don't make cheaper turntables they just continually upgrade the LP12. They made a cheaper 'Basik' table in the early '90s which was comparable to a Rega but the less said about these the better. You really can't mention Linn and Rega in the same breath in terms of performance so if he had an LP12 then the best bet would be to find another older spec one on Audiogon. The other option would be a more modern turntable like the VPI Scout which has a very different sound to the Sondek. Many would say the Linn is very coloured compared to a table like the VPI whereas others would find modern tables a bit cold and uninvolving compared to the LP12. This is really where turntables score over CD in the ability to tune the sound to your liking through tweaking various aspects of the set-up like the mat for instance. I don't think I agree that good Hi-Fi should necessarily expose every aspect of a bad recording such as to make it unlistenable. This is the job of studio monitoring equipment rather than domestic Hi-Fi. It's all well and good to aim for fidelity to the source (master tape) but it depends greatly on what kind of music you are talking about. There is a huge difference between fidelity to an open reel analogue recording of a live string quartet through crossed mics and fidelity to a piece of music created mixed and mastered without ever leaving a computer which is true of a lot more music made today than most people seem to realise whether the chosen interface is a guitar or a keyboard. Hi-fi should be able to connect the listener to the artist on an emotional level through the medium of music whether the artist was a violinist or a sculptor of sound in metasynth. If it gives you greater insight into the recording then that's all well and good but it shouldn't do so at the expense all else.

yeah, the whole shebang costs a lot now. if i go the Linn route, i'll probably be getting an older model off of Audiogon if i go Linn. i see your point in your last paragraph. what i aim for in sound is a realistic/full sound without much attention paid to microdetail. the main thing i'm worried about with getting a mid-high level TT is the "expense all else" on the vast majority of my recordings. the main reasons i want to get into vinyl:

a) LPs are cheap. i checked out Goodwill the other day and found at least 40 albums that i enjoy for .50 a pop.
b) while they are cheap, if you stumble across a good print/nice condition record, you've struck gold. it can offer great sound quality for much less than SACD.
c) it has less of the aforementioned "yuck" factor on bad recordings when you go higher up.

basically, i want a crossroads setup that won't make my unsatisfactory records sound like garbage and will still show the brilliance of some better recorded vinyl. Steely Dan must sound at least as good on vinyl as it does on CD...

something like this:

used Linn LP12 + $300~ cartridge (Grado?) + new tonearm/stylus (i'll have to look into this, don't have much knowledge of arms) -> NAD PP1

i think renovating a vintage turntable and getting a decent phono stage would pretty much accomplish what i'm going for, and if i want to go further into vinyl, serve as a great starting point.

so yeah, i'd probably run the bill up to around $1000 like that. opinions?

 

[Thelonious Monk]

yeah, a good example of a reason i'm getting into vinyl:

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/auc....52881&auc&3&4&

i would pay so much more for all of those recordings on CD...

 

[MontanaJustin]

I totally hear you on the cheap vinyl. Now that I'm taking a much deeper and longer look at my audio gear, and what is out there, vinyl definitely has a lot going for it. Especially if you have any interest whatsoever in classical, which has such a huge market share of LPs. Though I'm with you on not knowing much about vinyl - I just found out about the whole world of styluses and tonearms and cartridges this week(!), really.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thelonious Monk /img/forum/go_quote.gif yeah, a good example of a reason i'm getting into vinyl: http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/auc....52881&auc&3&4& i would pay so much more for all of those recordings on CD...

The Classical market in 2nd hand LP's is pretty different to other forms of music. Collectors of Classical music on vinyl by and large seem mostly interested in pre 1970s records and go by labels rather than composers, soloists, conductors or even recordings.

If you are just into music and don't care about whether it's the original London Decca black label pressing or a different pressing of the same recording or another later recording which may actually be better you can pick up amazing bargains for literally next to nothing.

There seemed to be a lot more early adopters of digital in classical music probably due to the longer playing times and lack of background noise which is a lot more noticable in quieter musical passages so 2nd hand records are very common and mostly cheap.

It's usually only worth picking up classical records if they are absolutely mint therefore, unless it's something rare as even with a record cleaning machine if the record hasn't been carefully looked after and played on good quality equipment then there is a good chance it's going to be audibly damaged.

Luckily people who listen to classical music are more likely to have good equipment and look after their records on the whole and as there is so much stuff knocking around 2nd hand for peanuts this isn't such a problem as you might find with other types of music.

Personally I think even a modest recording on vinyl conveys the timbre of the instruments much more realistically than CD. This is especially noticable on strings and woodwind. I am willing to put up with the odd pop and the gentle hiss of the master tape in the background to experience this. Some people prefer a completely black background and that's fair enough.

If you are mainly listening to classical music I would recommend a Thorens TD125/126 with an SME 3009 tonearm. This is a 'classic' set-up and does really sound wonderful with classical music.

These Thorens turntables are quite similar to the early versions of the Linn Sondek but slightly heavier in build so they last very well and also have a stronger suspension so are less fussy about heavier tonearms than the LP12 or cheaper Thoren's.

The SME 3009 was in production from the 1950s to the '80s but went through many revisions in mass so different vintages work better with different cartridges. The earlier versions will be more able to deal with Moving Coil carts, whereas the more common 3009 Series 2 Improved dates from the1970s when low mass tonearms were all the rage, so is commonly paired with a Shure V15. The SME III is also a fine arm but the 3009 has a particular talent for classical music. It's not as neutral as a Rega tonearm but it's tonal characteristics seem to work really well with classical but not so well with something like Hip Hop.

If you do decide to go for a Linn LP12 then a mid 80s one with the Valhalla electronic power supply and an Ittok tonearm would be around 1500. With an LVX / LVV tonearm then it should be 1000 or under. The cheaper Linn carts like the K series are essentially selected rebadged AT carts so arn't really worth paying much for. The Moving Coil Linn carts like the Asak are good but obviously you'll need to factor in a few hundred dollars for a retip.

 

[Thelonious Monk]

looked up the Thorens and the items you said work well with it; looks like a fine table, and just one question: if i buy a Shure V15 online, a lot of auctions sell them with the matching stylus. is it a good stylus or should i get a different one? i'm guessing it should be adequate, elliptical diamond-tip.

classical music definitely isn't my main genre (although i definitely love my Paganini and Sibelius!), and i'm probably going to mainly be using it for the abundant supply of rock and blues records i have available to me locally, and whatever jazz i can get my hands on. am i barking up the tree with some of those components you suggested? the Thorens 125 seems to be quite a prolific TT and i feel more comfortable buying a time-tested setup. i'm not a believer that a certain source will make a certain genre sound like total crap, but i could be wrong.. how's the Thorens with stuff like Steely Dan, Allman Brothers, Yes, Muddy Waters, Jimmy Smith, Thelonious Monk and other prog/classic rock, blues, and bebop/fusion? doubt i'll be listening to any hip-hop on vinyl, most of it is pretty badly recorded and i'd rather stick with that for my portable rig.

edit: just in case anyone thinks i'm confused, i know i can't use the PP1 with MC carts; that's what the PP2 is for!

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thelonious Monk /img/forum/go_quote.gif looked up the Thorens and the items you said work well with it; looks like a fine table, and just one question: if i buy a Shure V15 online, a lot of auctions sell them with the matching stylus. is it a good stylus or should i get a different one? i'm guessing it should be adequate, elliptical diamond-tip.

I only mentioned the V-15 because it's the classic match for the lower mass SME tonearms. The V15IV and V15VMR / VxMR all work with medium mass arms as well though. I used a VMR on my Origin Live arm (modded Rega RB250) for a while and it worked fine.
Unfortunately Shure discontinued the V15VxMR a few years ago and while they still turn up here and there it may be better to go for a 2nd hand VMR or IV as the replacement stylii are cheaper. There are several companies making aftermarket stylii for the older Shures like the Japanese compay JICO who make a special contact line stylus called SAS which most people agree is better than the original Shure Hyper Eliptical for the V15II/III/IV.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thelonious Monk /img/forum/go_quote.gif classical music definitely isn't my main genre (although i definitely love my Paganini and Sibelius!), and i'm probably going to mainly be using it for the abundant supply of rock and blues records i have available to me locally, and whatever jazz i can get my hands on. am i barking up the tree with some of those components you suggested?

The SME 3009 probably isn't going to be your cup of tea then although the Series III is worth considering with a V15III.

As far as the turntable itself goes I think the Thorens TD125 sounds more neutral then the Linn LP12 with an equivalent modern tonearm. The Linn is famous for it's ability with rock. It's really great at rhythms and makes drums sound really amazing. I put this down to the bouncier supsension which it shares with the Thorens TD150/160 and also the AR decks.

This didn't really suit me at the time because I also listen to a lot of electronic music and didn't like the way the Linn and TD160 made drum machines sound like live drummers which of course they are not meant to. It's less metronomic accuracy more 'bounce' which I think is caused by acoustic feedback exiting the suspension. This has been addressed by the Cirkus upgrade and many people prefer the sound of the pre-cirkus LP12 for this reason.

In this respect the TD125 sounds more modern than the Linn but given your musical tastes I think you will probably enjoy the Linn. They are both great turntables anyway.

Another thing you may want to take into account is that Thorens TD125/126 decks as you commonly find them 2nd hand are usually mounted with an SME 3009 or Series III so if you want a more modern sound you will need to upgrade the tonearm. This is pretty easy as there are ebay sellers who will supply pre-cut arm boards but it's something to bear in mind.
The same is true with a 2nd hand Sondek. Setting up the suspension is pretty fiddly. Find out from your dad whether he had a dealer do this for him or whether he did it himself and factor this into the equation.

In other words finding 2nd hand decks will certainly save you large amounts of money but they generaly need more tweaking to get them running and not everyone is into this.