[Vicious Tyrant]

OK, this might be stupid, but....

What was so powerful about the Ring? What power did it give?

Alberich gets caught by Loge while he's wearing it.

Fafner's power seems as much about the Tarnhelm making him into a dragon as anything else, he gets killed by Siegfried anyway.

Brunnhilde tries to fend off Siegfried/Gunther with the ring, but it gets her no where.

Seigfriend is wearing the ring when he gets killed.


So, help me out here. What is the power of the ring? It never seems to really help anyone. I'm not nearly as well read on Wagner as some of you, but I've never read anything about that.

 

[zotjen]

Basically, he who owns the ring can rule the world. The problem is that Alberich puts a curse on it so that it also brings death and destruction as well.

 

[Ruggerio79]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zotjen Basically, he who owns the ring can rule the world. The problem is that Alberich puts a curse on it so that it also brings death and destruction as well.

The whole thing is very Lord of the Rings.

 

[humanflyz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruggerio79 The whole thing is very Lord of the Rings.

On the contrary, the Lord of the Rings is very Ring-ish, since Tolkien took inspiration from Wagner's opera.

 

[mbhaub]

The only things Wagner and Tolkien have in common are a golden ring and they both try the patience of the listener/reader in the extreme. The rings in each are what Hitchcock referred to as the McGuffin -- it doesn't really matter what it is, but the bad guys are trying to get it from the good guys. As much as I enjoy the Wagner and Tolkien, I must admit that Peter Jackson
s filmed trilogy is the most enjoyable of the three. Love those movies!

 

[pds6]

Hello Vicious Tyrant. If you're going to listen to Wagner, what the need for new equipment.

Wagner's music is better than it sounds.

Mr. Wagner has beautiful moments but bad quarters of an hour.

One can't judge Wagner's opera 'Lohengrin' after a first hearing
and I certainly don't intend hearing it a second time.

Parsifal is the kind of opera that starts at six o'clock and after it has been running for three hours, you check your watch and it says 6:20.

They go on and on ... Good Luck

pds6

EDIT: As any Opera fan knows, Rossini hated Wagner and Wagner returned the favor (After Rossini dies, who will there be to promote his music?). Two of the above quotes are attributed to Rossini. Do you know which two?

There is another Wagner - Tolkien connection. Tolkien had Nazi sympathies in the 1930's. To his credit, he cleaned-up his act at the outbreak of the war. Wagner does not seem to bring out the best in people!

 

[lwd]

Vicious Tyrant - best not to think about these things and just enjoy the music! (like so many operas..)

pds6 - thanks for the third hand wagner quotes

 

[pds6]

lwd says:
Quote:

pds6 - thanks for the third hand wagner quotes

Always.

PM me for pages of great Wagner quotes.

 

[Ruggerio79]

Quote:

Originally Posted by humanflyz On the contrary, the Lord of the Rings is very Ring-ish, since Tolkien took inspiration from Wagner's opera.

Yes. Toklien was inspired by nibelungen. But am i right to say that gollum and alberich are quite similar characters?

 

[bigshot]

Gollum and Mime are closer than Gollum and Alberich.

See ya
Steve

 

[Doc Sarvis]

I think it's more accurate to say that both Tolkien and Wagner borrowed elements of their story lines from Norse, Germanic, and Icelandic mythologies, which in turn sprung from proto-myths that have influenced every civilization on Earth, since they stem from human psychology. George Lucas borrowed from the same sources for Star Wars (ever notice how Luke and Leia and Sieglinde and Siegmunde both turn out to be brother and sister?). Read Campbell's The Power of Myth and Donington's Wagner's Ring for more information.

As for Tolkien vs. Wagner: Each man crafted the mythological elements to fit what he was trying to say, symbolically. Wagner started out writing a revolutionary socialist tract, then morphed it over the years he worked on it to a tale of the "sacred feminine" and the redeeming power of love. (I believe his ego would not allow hm to rewrite anything he had already put to pen). Tolkien saw hmself as providing England with a prefabricated mythology that wove in Christian themes to a pre-Christian setting. The common story elements are all there, especially if one considers The Hobbit as part of LOTR: A ring that is vaguely symbolic for all kinds of corrupting power, a twin who kills another twin to get it, a dragon, a wandering figure who is really Gandalf/Wotan, a dwarf-populated underground world, a hero reforging a broken sword, etc. Those are just off the top - I could name many other thematic similarities.

 

[Doc Sarvis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot Gollum and Mime are closer than Gollum and Alberich. See ya Steve

There is also a Gollum/Fafner connection.

 

[robm321]

Wow, interesting thread. I had no idea about a possible connection between "Lord of the Rings" and Wagner's "The Ring".

I would have to assume as mentioned above that this is a story from way way back that is universal like Gilgamesh's story of “the flood” in The Odyssey mirroring the Biblical “flood” story.

 

[Vicious Tyrant]

Firstly, thanks to all who answered my question - gold star goes to mbhuab. The bit about the Macguffin makes a great deal of sense and eases my mind that I wasn't missing something important.

Second, I don't know about the Tolkein connection, but here's a site that goes into the Star Wars/Ring connection. Kind of an interesting way to spend ten minutes.

Star Wars/Ring

pds6, what can I say? You're a funny man. It's true, though, that I listen to a lot of Wagner - less because I "enjoy" it, per se, more because it's so damn interesting intellectually. I have no idea what that says about me!

 

[pds6]

I just saw your name in the thread and posted. I hope I did not hurt any feelings.