[Orpheus]

hi. hope you guys can help on this one...

i just received my pioneer dv47ai... and i can only get it to output 44/48khz to my Grace 901. i can't tell if it's cause the grace is not reading the signal, or why the pioneer ain't outputing hi-res, even for my dvd-a's that indicate 88 or 96khz recording.

now, i reread the manual, and it notes somewhere that some dvd-a's will be downsampled no matter the settings that i make to the player. why is that?--and is this why it's not working out for me?

also, i noticed that the status while playing my two dvd-a's (beck & sting) that the type of signal is "converted ppcm." what the heck is that? i've tried every combination of settings, and i can't get rid of the "converted" part. and the manual keeps mentioning "linear pcm" which seems to be able to be outputed at high-res... but i can only get this ppcm. anyone know what ppcm is?

anyway... this is frustrating to me, cause i really dunno what's wrong here. the grace worked fine with the philips 963sa, and was able to lock onto its 96khz upsampled digital output just fine... so i'm thinking most likely it has to do with the pioneer?

 

[gpalmer]

I'm guessing that it's actually based on the DVD-Audio titles, though I don't have either to check it. The rules established by the DVD Forum is that only DVD-Video and below content can be output. ppcm is packed PCM which is a high-res format unique to DVD-Audio and therefore it cannot be output digitally. (Off the top of my head, I think the surround channels with ppcm are at a higher resolution than the surround channels for DVD-Video, even though I think the main channels are the same). See if there is an audio track with DVD Video comptible surround or dual channel encoding, that should do the trick.

 

[Wodgy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orpheus now, i reread the manual, and it notes somewhere that some dvd-a's will be downsampled no matter the settings that i make to the player. why is that?--and is this why it's not working out for me?

It could be. There is a flag the DVD-A content producers can set which instructs the player to always downsample. It's possible that the Pioneer player respects this flag, and the Philips doesn't. You'll notice that the Pioneer also respects the "don't allow the user to skip/bypass this" flag on many regular DVDs (usually set on promo advertising before the main feature) whereas many other mainstream players ignore it (e.g. Sony).

 

[Jasper994]

DVD-A only supports the higher resolutions off the analog outputs. The player itself has to do the decode since it prevents you from copying the digital signal which is supposed to be equivalent to the original masters. It's part of the copy protection scheme they came up with. There was supposed to be support for a digital transfer using IEEE1394 since it allowed for copy protection but I haven't seen much of it.

-EDIT-

Part of the standard dictates that the signal can be output digital but it has to be downsampled to 48 or 44.1khz. The Grace will take a 96khz but the Pioneer is upsampling a 44.1khz signal to it to do so. You can also pass any non copy protected 96khz signal to it.

Just run analog from the player to the Grace and you should notice a big improvement in quality.

 

[Orpheus]

okay, thanks....

the manual does imply that 96khz output is possible. there's even one menu item that asks if your "receiver" is capable of linear 96khz pcm, and one menu item asking if it should downsample 88/96 to 44/48. so....... how the heck to i test this 96khz output??? i'm thinking i have to get a 192khz disc to test this?

if so, anyone know of a disc that high in resolution?

this is BS.... not what i expected. i was so hoping to listen to the high-res off the Grace and my other DAC's. stupid.

so, i guess this means that my player's not broken right?--seriously.

 

[Jasper994]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orpheus okay, thanks.... the manual does imply that 96khz output is possible. there's even one menu item that asks if your "receiver" is capable of linear 96khz pcm, and one menu item asking if it should downsample 88/96 to 44/48. so....... how the heck to i test this 96khz output??? i'm thinking i have to get a 192khz disc to test this? if so, anyone know of a disc that high in resolution? this is BS.... not what i expected. i was so hoping to listen to the high-res off the Grace and my other DAC's. stupid. so, i guess this means that my player's not broken right?--seriously.

You can listen to hi-rez, you just have to let the player's DAC do the decode rather than the Grace. There are some DVD-A's that are 24/96khz but are not copy protected. Queen - Night at the Opera is one of them, also some of the AIX releases should have a 24/96khz 2 channel mix that is straight LPCM. Like I said though, all DVD-A's will work if you just let the player do the decode for you rather than the Grace or some other DAC.

An no, your player is not broken, or doesn't sound like it is.

 

[Jasper994]

BTW, the s/pdif standard allows for 24/96khz, that's what they're talking about, you can pass the signal provided it's not copy protected.

 

[Jasper994]

Time to break out some of those nice interconnects you've got Dean... or make some new ones.

 

[gpalmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orpheus okay, thanks.... the manual does imply that 96khz output is possible. there's even one menu item that asks if your "receiver" is capable of linear 96khz pcm, and one menu item asking if it should downsample 88/96 to 44/48. so....... how the heck to i test this 96khz output??? i'm thinking i have to get a 192khz disc to test this? if so, anyone know of a disc that high in resolution? this is BS.... not what i expected. i was so hoping to listen to the high-res off the Grace and my other DAC's. stupid. so, i guess this means that my player's not broken right?--seriously.

No, 192 KHz is an advanced format and will NOT be output digitally except at the downsampled rate. The Beach Boys - ‘Pet Sounds’ has stereo 96 KHz according to this review Beach Boys. What you need is 96 KHz Linear PCM to make the Grace happy...

 

[Jasper994]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpalmer No, 192 KHz is an advanced format and will NOT be output digitally except at the downsampled rate. The Beach Boys - ‘Pet Sounds’ has stereo 96 KHz according to this review Beach Boys. What you need is 96 KHz Linear PCM to make the Grace happy...

...yup, yup...

 

[Orpheus]

Quote:

No, 192 KHz is an advanced format and will NOT be output digitally except at the downsampled rate.

exactly (it even says in the manual 192khz discs are downsampled automatically.) and when it downsamples, it will downsample to 96khz.... get what i'm saying?

...but anyway, where can i find a 96khz linear pcm disc?

 

[gpalmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasper994 There are some DVD-A's that are 24/96khz but are not copy protected. Queen - Night at the Opera is one of them, also some of the AIX releases should have a 24/96khz 2 channel mix that is straight LPCM.

This is not really the right way to phrase it. As I mentioned before it is anything that is "Advanced Audio Format" i.e., a DVD-Audio specific hi-res format that cannot be output. This is a different idea than watermarking and some of the other copy protection mechanisms.

 

[gpalmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orpheus exactly (it even says in the manual 192khz discs are downsampled automatically.) and when it downsamples, it will downsample to 96khz.... get what i'm saying? ...but anyway, where can i find a 96khz linear pcm disc?

The downsampling would decimate the music to get it under the cap that Jasper994 mentioned earlier so it will not wind up being 96 KHz rather crappy 44.1 or 48 KHz. The Beach Boys disc I linked to above has it and you can find other discs that have it on that site. I used to use DVD-Empire for DVD-Audio discs, they seem to have the best selection I have found.

 

[Jasper994]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpalmer This is not really the right way to phrase it. As I mentioned before it is anything that is "Advanced Audio Format" i.e., a DVD-Audio specific hi-res format that cannot be output. This is a different idea than watermarking and some of the other copy protection mechanisms.

It's "Advanced Resolution" and it was intended as copy protection as well as compression. You're right though, anything that is compressed with MLP is not readable without an MLP decoder.

 

[Jasper994]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpalmer The downsampling would decimate the music to get it under the cap that Jasper994 mentioned earlier so it will not wind up being 96 KHz rather crappy 44.1 or 48 KHz. The Beach Boys disc I linked to above has it and you can find other discs that have it on that site. I used to use DVD-Empire for DVD-Audio discs, they seem to have the best selection I have found.

*nod*