[arcorob]

  I find the DD thingie with the AT1100 VERY nice. AT low mass arms with the fluid damping ONLY IN HORIZONTAL DIRECTION are the second best solution for the high compliance and relatively high mass cartridges, a description that unfortunately describes most of the AT's own better MM carts. The first are arms that can be precisely adjusted for resonant frequency/damping, either mechanical or electronics assisted. Fluid damping in vertical plane does almost zero in reducing the amplitude of the peak at resonance, but deadens the sound to the point of killing any life out of it. AT designers realized that and made a whole series of tonearms around this idea - that is why they are still highly sought after and fetching good coin when changing hands - to this very day. They can be seen as the pinnacle of all things Audio Technica ever produced.
 
And it is a special delight to see one in such great enviroment - congrats !

Thank you...I loved that arm..and that table...I did find it a good home. I also rewired the arm using Litz wire (fun project). The motor, platter and strobe/pitch control are all form a DUAL EDS 500 motor. That thing was rock steady. Literally set the pitch and forget it. No oscillation. I had another Dual (the 721) with the EDS 1000 Hall motor and though it was SUPPOSEDLY better, it drifted, no matter what. very little but still...drift.
 
http://www.vinylengine.com/library/audio-technica/at-1100.shtml

 

[arcorob]

  That is EXCELLENT! You need to start a turntable modding thread 

Cali,
 
I would BUT...I am new and I don't think the site leans that way. I have already nestled myself in to all your welcoming good graces. LOL
 
I don't want to start something that seems a bit off topic...Though I love talking about tubes and turntables. Now I foray into the world of digital...and what better place than here ?
 
BTW...as to modding...I am a piker compared to some of the beautiful tables I have seen guys build...works of art...

 

[EH-Yeon]

Totally new to turntable. Any tips to check when purchasing a turntable? Saw a few working turn table left on street and garage sales recently. Tempted to get one to add in collection. 

 

[arcorob]

Hmm...left on the street and working seem mutually exclusive BUT sometimes people throw out gems. Sort of like the local goodwill that just tosses TT's in a dumpster !!! Ayyyyyyyy

 
Check your local craigslist. But first, determine what style you like. A good way to do that is go to ebay and put in searches like
 
Pioneer Turntable
Sansui Turntable
JVC Turntable
Technics Turntable
Dual turntable
 
etc....
 
This will give you an idea. There are direct drive and belt drive.
 
You can also check craigslist in your area and feel free to ask me about them.
 
The BEST resource for turntable info is vinylengine.com  The have the manuals (user and repair ) for almost Every table. FREE. You just join and go to library. Then when you click a brand, it lists all their tables. Click a table and it tells you about it.
 
for example
http://www.vinylengine.com/library/dual/721.shtml
 
 
Hope that helps

 

[EH-Yeon]

  Hmm...left on the street and working seem mutually exclusive BUT sometimes people throw out gems. Sort of like the local goodwill that just tosses TT's in a dumpster !!! Ayyyyyyyy

 
Check your local craigslist. But first, determine what style you like. A good way to do that is go to ebay and put in searches like
 
Pioneer Turntable
Sansui Turntable
JVC Turntable
Technics Turntable
Dual turntable
 
etc....
 
This will give you an idea. There are direct drive and belt drive.
 
You can also check craigslist in your area and feel free to ask me about them.
 
The BEST resource for turntable info is vinylengine.com  The have the manuals (user and repair ) for almost Every table. FREE. You just join and go to library. Then when you click a brand, it lists all their tables. Click a table and it tells you about it.
 
for example
http://www.vinylengine.com/library/dual/721.shtml
 
 
Hope that helps

oh thanks for the info. Yea, that was a waste. If i had a car I would just drive them back the time i saw that. Time to do some homework on this. Merry xmas!!!

 

[analogsurviver]

  That is EXCELLENT! You need to start a turntable modding thread 

I do not find it a particularly good idea.
 
Why? because it IS black hole - not just rabbit hole  - for time and money. 
 
Turntable is unfortunately , despite being 100 or so years old idea, still not correctly understood. It is the most precise and sensitive contraption one can actually have in the home - bar none. Stylus is capable of retrieving detail ( as verified by measurements on spectrum analyzer ) that CAN NOT be seen on the scanning electron microscope shots of the portion of the groove where this low level signal is recorded. That should give you an idea that structuraL resonances in turntable materials, dwarfing the inherent capabilities of stylus by many orders of magnitude, are the real culprit that prevents analog vinyl replay to actually achieve greatness it is inherently capable of.
 
Resonance control/prevention - no matter how you might want to call it - is being only partially adressed in actiual turntable designs - even the very best and most costlier.
The reason is simple - cost. Casting a metal platter is incomparably cheaper than machining the same out of solid block of metal, not to mention making a carefully designed and executed platter out of combination of materials that allow for the lowest resonance signature possible. The first can be mass produced, the later is next to impossible to produce without having to involve manual labour - and that is $$$.
 
Plinth, although it can contribute to the performance of the TT overall, is merely a band aid if the platter is a singing merry go-along-forever affair - which unfortunately describes most of actual turntables in use today. As a matter of fact, ANYTHING that is not absolutely essential for the basic operation, such as plinths, covers,  levers, dials, displays, etc, etc - can be and is detrimental to the sound. That is why there are finally some stripped to the bone designs dispensing with all the unnecessetties of record replay emerging - Kuzma Stabi S (knowing the TRUE origin/designer of this design makes me sick whenever I see it... - but it was commercially made available by Kuzma),   Funk Firm's next-to-nothing designs ( shamelessly copied by the latest/costliest Rega, built with better materials/tolerances, at punishing price ) - and I may have left a few others that fit into this less-is-more category. The opposite approach is that of EMT, where the whole design is so precisely executed that there is tightening torque specified for any screw that has an influence on resonance control - the big EMT DD TT is among the best sounding decks out there, despite being a pro design where reliability is the priority #1.
 
How critical materials in turntables are is best described in Lencoheaven forum - there is any variation/combination that still is within the reach of even VERY high heeled enthusiast. Any idea how much might a theorethically desirable plinth out of - carbon fibre/boron/diamond ( in increasing order of desirability ) - COST ? Carbon fibre is perhaps still within the reach of the most experienced/well-to-do DIYers - other two are wishful thinking even for the largest manufacturers.

 

[arcorob]

Hmm..well..there are turntables ...and then there are turntables...and quality of sound is relative to the needs (and budget) of the listener. I know people with systems where the tables cost 20K ..and others whose tables cost a few hundred or less. Each are equally happy.
 
What you just described has been the downfall of audiophiles who reach that pinnacle and STOP enjoying their music. why ? Because they traded "forgiving" for "resolving" instead of balancing both. Their systems are so precise that any spec of dust, any lack of mastering excellence renders the music unlistenable. It is the extremes in those systems...extremely beautiful or extremely bad but no in between. And the majority of music would fall in that middle category.
 
I don't see turntables or vinyl a black hole because ultimately its about the music. Is one listening for enjoyment or is one listening to precision ? When I turn on vinyl, I don't hear pops, click or skips, nor do I have rumble or flutter. I make sure of that via equipment, the quality of my vinyl, my cleaning machine, etc. And if a stray piece of dust lands on my vinyl and it is heard, it is all part of the experience.
 
But even in the digital world, if we look at lack of precision as a barrier to the music, then every bad mastering would send us in a tailspin and there are many poorly mastered digital files. This is where forgiving comes in and finding that happy system balance of forgiving and resolving,
 
Just my humble opinion...

 

[calipilot227]

I'm of a similar opinion. I will take forgiving but pleasing sound over hyper-accurate and analytical. What good is your rig if you can only listen to a select few well-mastered recordings because everything else sounds horrible? I mean, I love MFSL, but some of my favorite music is only available on *gasp* NON-AUDIOPHILE LABELS!!! 

 Not to mention the garage sale/thrift store/flea market/dollar bin finds.
 
And with that, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays everyone! 

 

[analogsurviver]

  I'm of a similar opinion. I will take forgiving but pleasing sound over hyper-accurate and analytical. What good is your rig if you can only listen to a select few well-mastered recordings because everything else sounds horrible? I mean, I love MFSL, but some of my favorite music is only available on *gasp* NON-AUDIOPHILE LABELS!!! 

 Not to mention the garage sale/thrift store/flea market/dollar bin finds.
 
And with that, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays everyone! 

 
 

  Hmm..well..there are turntables ...and then there are turntables...and quality of sound is relative to the needs (and budget) of the listener. I know people with systems where the tables cost 20K ..and others whose tables cost a few hundred or less. Each are equally happy.
 
What you just described has been the downfall of audiophiles who reach that pinnacle and STOP enjoying their music. why ? Because they traded "forgiving" for "resolving" instead of balancing both. Their systems are so precise that any spec of dust, any lack of mastering excellence renders the music unlistenable. It is the extremes in those systems...extremely beautiful or extremely bad but no in between. And the majority of music would fall in that middle category.
 
I don't see turntables or vinyl a black hole because ultimately its about the music. Is one listening for enjoyment or is one listening to precision ? When I turn on vinyl, I don't hear pops, click or skips, nor do I have rumble or flutter. I make sure of that via equipment, the quality of my vinyl, my cleaning machine, etc. And if a stray piece of dust lands on my vinyl and it is heard, it is all part of the experience.
 
But even in the digital world, if we look at lack of precision as a barrier to the music, then every bad mastering would send us in a tailspin and there are many poorly mastered digital files. This is where forgiving comes in and finding that happy system balance of forgiving and resolving,
 
Just my humble opinion...

I did not STOP enjoying my music - be it from whatever source I still find acceptable, analog turntable included. But I certainly agree with the point you made.
 
Trouble is, it is getting ever harder - after realizing where the most thin vinyl analog bottleneck has been hiding all these years. And it was the snowball at the top of the hill...
If done properly and reasonably, it should be possible to design from scratch a turntable for say a grand (minus the cartridge) - that would leave VERY little - or no -  ground to the six figures behemoths. 
 
I agree it is ultimately about the music. But that music, unless heard live (my preference), has to be somehow recorded and then played back. And this process consists of many many processes linked in a chain, the end of which we finally do get to hear in our homes. That is where one must decide on the degree of balance between gorgiving and resolving - some music that I like is horribly bad on hig resolution system, some music I was not originally too interested in proved to be so well recorded that it gets more playtime as it would have otherwise.
 
Throughout the history of the recording, each recording carries a stamp put on it by the equipment it was recorded on AND skill and care of those people who have operated that equipment. What was acceptable any given number of decade(s) ago, might and may get noticed as flaw today. Ask yourself - how many records and tracks on those records you have with HUM recorded - after taking any measure to reduce hum to close to zero in your system? The list could go on and on - but it was possible to record as near perfect recording 50 years ago - try Harry Belafonte's At Carnegie Hall. 
 
To illustrate the point of importance of the quality of the recording itself, two examples, separated by say one generation in time, father and son :
 
 

 

 
Although this is about exactly one year overdue, the way I would wish Merry Cristmas and Happy Holidays - provided I could play or sing ( and look...):
 

 

[Destroysall]

  Totally new to turntable. Any tips to check when purchasing a turntable? Saw a few working turn table left on street and garage sales recently. Tempted to get one to add in collection. 

I'd check out U-Turn Audio.. it's received decent reviews and won't break the bank.

 

[analogsurviver]

 
I'd check out U-Turn Audio.. it's received decent reviews and won't break the bank.

+1.

 

[arcorob]

Analogsurvivor,
 
I certainly did not mean to imply you stopped enjoying the music. Not at all. What I was answering basically was you pointed out the pitfalls of turntables to the n'th degree which really applies to most equipment. But everyone has a budget and a level of acceptance.
 
I hear what you are saying and agree, it should be easier to address the items you listed, The Orbit has been mentioned here and it has achieved quite a lot for a budget turntable, SO if that much could be achieved for a $200 table, it seems logical one could build a $1000 table that addresses all you point out. But unless you have a granite plinth, magnetic air spindle bearing, offboard motor and anti-resonant arm...well, these guys have been making tables for years in all price ranges. And they obviously have bee acceptable to the greatest majority of people. For instance, though not my personal fave, the Techinics Sl1200MKII was the largest selling table of all time.
 
Anyway, people can and will enjoy the resurgence of vinyl regardless of budget...
 
Merry Christmas  to you maybe we'll get together and build my granite based table !!!
 
Rob

 

[parbaked]

Yes...the long awaited, much anticipated AS1000 (Analog Surviver $1000 turntable) now featuring a custom by-Rob granite base....
Where do I send my deposit?
Merry Christmas All!

 

[Silent One]

  Yes...the long awaited, much anticipated AS1000 (Analog Surviver $1000 turntable) now featuring a custom by-Rob granite base....
Where do I send my deposit?
Merry Christmas All!

Group Buy? 

 

[Anavel0]

Yes...the long awaited, much anticipated AS1000 (Analog Surviver $1000 turntable) now featuring a custom by-Rob granite base....
Where do I send my deposit?
Merry Christmas All!

For $1000, with a granite base, that's the same price as a VPI Nomad. Where do I sign up for the group buy, haha.