[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsaavedra /img/forum/go_quote.gif Your first seemed to have missed it, but now you seem to just openly avoid the point of the analogy. Anyway, it's there for whoever wants to ponder on it.

you are assuming input to the AC-DC circuit doesn't matter, but it does.

circuits are much more complex than water boiler, that's why people pay big bucks for EE

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif you are assuming input to the AC-DC circuit doesn't matter, but it does.

I'm not. Just my mentioning the operational ranges shows that I'm not assuming such thing.

Quote:

circuits are much more complex than water boiler, that's why people pay big bucks for EE

Interesting rhetoric. Please indulge yourself in explaining the relevance of the "shape of the wave" and dv/dt, di/dt and phasors (both real and imaginary) in the DC ouput of the regulated power supply then.

 

[meat01]

Quote:

Do you believe that at some point in the range from "paper clips and rust" to "Valhalla" there IS an audible difference between cables?

As far as an interconnect goes, I will safely say that there is absolutely no audible difference between a bunch of soldered paper clips and a Vahalla, unless the Vahalla puts resistors and/or other components in their cables. If the Vahalla is just a cable, then no there is no audible difference between them.

I can not say the same for an AC power cord, because I am not going to make a power cord out of paper clips. I feel there is minimum requirement with the wires to carry 110 volts or 220 volt at a certain current and as long as that minimum is met, it does not matter what the material is, as long as the same amount of current and voltage is being delivered.

Has a different power cord ever made a a difference in TV picture quality? What about a computer, or an oscilloscope? Hmm, just an objective audio system huh?

 

[earwicker7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by outmatch /img/forum/go_quote.gif "The world is flat." "The sun revolves around the world." "Heavier objects fall down at faster rate than lighter ones." "Light is a form of wave and cannot be affected by gravitational force." "Time is an absolute quantity." That were all facts at a point in human's history. Anything not yet proved or disproved must not be assumed as a fact. Objectivity only exists in the rules you fabricated, such as 1+1 must equal 2. Discussing about cables is pointless, you cannot actually prove or disprove anything. You are trying to find absolutes in this relative universe.

x2

I feel sorry for people so locked in to temperocentrism. "2007 is the most advanced the world has ever been. We know everything about audio, and over the next million years, we will discover nothing new!"

 

[earwicker7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrJoshua /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've said this before, but how can the last metre of cable possibly change the electricity that's been flowing for potentially hundreds of miles over industrial grade cable, through sub-stations, into your house (which could have dubious wiring internally), through fuse/breaker boxes etc etc etc... I just cannot fathom how a cable, however well it's been braided and what fancypants conductor/dialetric it uses, could possibly improve on the transfer of energy from such an unpure source. It just boggles the mind!

My opinion, and it's just that, is that as far as your system is concerned, the power cord isn't the last 6 feet, it's the first 6 feet.

 

[earwicker7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agnostic /img/forum/go_quote.gif One last question to you "cable guys" before I stop wasting my time. Are any of you even willing to admit that it is conceivable that some of the differences you hear between cables are possibly due to placebo effect. (I'm not saying that that is what you hear, I'm asking is it even theoretically possible.)

Of course, any rational person knows that ANYTHING is subject to placebo.

So let's turn the tables a bit. Are you willing to admit the nocebo effect on people who have made up their minds about cables not making a difference? There have been documented cases of nocebo effect causing people to not be affected by strong pain medications that have plenty of objective proof of working and working well.

 

[earwicker7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agnostic /img/forum/go_quote.gif I give up. This is just a waste of time. Enjoy your super expensive power cables that have no proven or according to you even provable (because the differences you invested so much money in getting magically vanish in a puff of smoke when you start ABX'ing) quality increase over anything that can supply sufficient power to the attached appliance. Amen!

No problem. Keep enjoying your belief that an ipod is a viable source

.

By the way, I'm agnostic myself. Agnostics question everything... even their own beliefs.

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif My opinion, and it's just that, is that as far as your system is concerned, the power cord isn't the last 6 feet, it's the first 6 feet.

No no no, those can certainly be the last 6 feet of a large audiophile-grade AC system

 

[WindowsX]

So this is a story between "Oh! No! It's too damn expensive for these little changes!" and "Well, these improvements worth my wallet!", right? I guess it's the same story as "Who would be crazy enough to spend over thousands just for music listening?" in common people's eyes.

P.S. I'm sorry if this makes somebody sounds like they're cheap for audiophile wannabe but I just want to point out the truth that You guys know it's not placebo but you can't sacrifice a lot of money (50-100, maybe) for little improvements you think that won't worth it and calling placebo will make you guys feel better

For people who read all these long pages and tried actual listening but still call it placebo, they should be marked as LOSER

 

[Febs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by WindowsX /img/forum/go_quote.gif This isn't problem about believer or non-believer but respect or no respect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WindowsX /img/forum/go_quote.gif For people who read all these long pages and tried actual listening but still call it placebo, they should be marked as LOSER

What a hypocrite you are.

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif There have been documented cases of nocebo effect causing people to not be affected by strong pain medications that have plenty of objective proof of working and working well.

You are referring to an active drug that results in a negative response. That doesn't really apply to nocebo. The correct use of the word "nocebo" allegedly refers to an inert drug or treatment that causes a harmful/negative response (the nocebo response) in the patient, as opposed to the beneficial/positive response (placebo response) associated to the also inert placebo drug. Depending on the case, one same inert drug can cause placebo and nocebo responses on different people.

 

[fwojciec]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Assorted /img/forum/go_quote.gif Before this thread gets closed...

Why would this thread need to be closed? I don't think there is anything offensive about this thread, other than the fact that two well established fractions in this hobby exchange their ideas about audio here, and are not afraid to talk about some controversial and or even taboo issues. But it's not just a useless bickering, in either case, one can definitely sense that there is a point of contact between the two groups already, people listen to each other instead of just bashing each other, and are willing to look for points of contact between the two main positions represented, even if the debate gets a little heated at times. I think there are some important ideas that were mentioned in this thread, central to how one can enjoy audio as a hobby, and it is great that, to some extent at least, people are willing to explore those areas together in spite of their differences on some key points.

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fwojciec /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why would this thread need to be closed? I don't think there is anything offensive about this thread, other than the fact that two well established fractions in this hobby exchange their ideas about audio here, and are not afraid to talk about some controversial and or even taboo issues. But it's not just a useless bickering, in either case, one can definitely sense that there is a point of contact between the two groups already, people listen to each other instead of just bashing each other, and are willing to look for points of contact between the two main positions represented, even if the debate gets a little heated at times. I think there are some important ideas that were mentioned in this thread, central to how one can enjoy audio as a hobby, and it is great that, to some extent at least, people are willing to explore those areas together in spite of their differences on some key points.

x2

 

[earwicker7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsaavedra /img/forum/go_quote.gif You are referring to an active drug that results in a negative response. That doesn't really apply to nocebo. The correct use of the word "nocebo" allegedly refers to an inert drug or treatment that causes a harmful/negative response (the nocebo response) in the patient, as opposed to the beneficial/positive response (placebo response) associated to the also inert placebo drug. Depending on the case, one same inert drug can cause placebo and nocebo responses on different people.

Perhaps there is a different psychological vs pharmacological difference in the definition? I'm just telling you the way it was presented to me by my psych professor at the time (although it was a pyschological pharmacology class--d'oh!). Basically, what I got out of the prof was that this referred to people "unwilling" themselves from having effects from drugs... ie, "This drug won't do anything." Although there are actually physical changes going on in their body, they don't "feel" them and will deny they have any effect.

Hope that clarifies what I'm getting at

 

[earwicker7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fwojciec /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why would this thread need to be closed? I don't think there is anything offensive about this thread, other than the fact that two well established fractions in this hobby exchange their ideas about audio here, and are not afraid to talk about some controversial and or even taboo issues. But it's not just a useless bickering, in either case, one can definitely sense that there is a point of contact between the two groups already, people listen to each other instead of just bashing each other, and are willing to look for points of contact between the two main positions represented, even if the debate gets a little heated at times. I think there are some important ideas that were mentioned in this thread, central to how one can enjoy audio as a hobby, and it is great that, to some extent at least, people are willing to explore those areas together in spite of their differences on some key points.

Thanks! It's good to hear someone I disagree with be open to discussion without "getting their feelings hurt". Kudos!