[Chisum]

Hi,

in the new issue of the well established (but not necessarily good) German "stereoplay" magazine there was a bunch of (partly new) headphones tested, so if you're interested, here are the results (sound quality rating in brackets):

AKG K101 (29)
< Sennheiser HD515 (32)
< Beyerdynamic DT440 (34)
< AKG K171 Studio (36) = Beyerdynamic DT660 (36)
< AKG K301 Xtra (37)
< Sennheiser HD555 (38)
< Beyerdynamic DT860 (41)
< AKG K271 Studio (42) = Beyerdynamic DT770 (42)
< Sennheiser HD595 (43)
< Grado SR125 (44)
< Beyerdynamic DT880 (45)
< Grado SR325 (48) = Sennheiser HD650 (48)
< Grado RS1 (52)

Some older reference tests are:

Sennheiser Orpheus (55)
Stax SR404 (53)
Ultrasone Edition 7 (53)
AKG K1000 (50)
Sony MDR-CD3000 (48)
Sennheiser HD600 (46)
Beyerdynamic DT931 (42)
Beyerdynamic DT831 (40)

They also tested 4 headphone amps, which all got "highly recommended":

Creek OBH21 + OBH1
< Heed Audio CanAmp
< Creek OBH21SE + OBH2
< Vincent KHV111 (only this good with high impedance cans)
< Grado RA1 (Reference)

I will not commend much on their credibility here, but in general their system is simple: the more expensive, the better, with only VERY few exceptions. What confused me again were the very good reviews the Grados got, regarding how extremely crappy their frequency responses look (compared to the other cans of course), with almost no deep bass and extremely rolled of highs. Measurements were done with a modified artificial ear type B&K 4153 (whatever that means).

Well, if anything, I now know for sure that Sonys CD3000 is better than Senns HD600

Cheers

Chisum

 

[lini]

The Grado amp is their reference, btw - that means they don't know any better. So much for expertise...

Grinnings from Hannover!

Manfred / lini

 

[cosmopragma]

Quote:

What confused me again were the very good reviews the Grados got, regarding how extremely ****ty their frequency responses look

You wouldn't believe how extremely crappy the frequency response of our ears look.

 

[Spent&Bent]

Outside of this forum the RA-1 / RS-1 seems to have quite a status, probably because others are not as fixed on numbers, uinstead judge the amp / cans on how it sounds when playing music instead.

I have a very strong feeling that there are lots of people here that base their purchases on measurements not on how it reproduces music, why buy all this music gear when you don't listen to the music????
I don't mean to offend but I just had to say this.

 

[JaZZ]

Grado has a good name in the German magazine press. It's associated with their high-priced (high-end?) pickups and Joseph Grado the opera singer. So Grado headphones are a symbol of audiophile classical music reproduction... And then there's the wood...

All this because they really have no clue when it comes to headphone reproduction. It's all about not sounding too boring compared to speakers.

 

[Spent&Bent]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ Grado has a good name in the German magazine press. It's associated with their high-priced (high-end?) pickups and Joseph Grado the opera singer. So Grado headphones are a symbol of audiophile classical music reproduction... And then there's the wood... All this because they really have no clue when it comes to headphone reproduction. It's all about not sounding too boring compared to speakers.

Could be, but if I want a speaker sound I get speakers, they offer better imaging too.

 

[peekarwe]

When I buy something. I walk into the shop, I dun even try to ask for price and reviews or the specifications. I listen, pick out what I like, then I ask. I did that and chose a Beyer DT431 (very old model) over a Senn 555 (very new model), simply because I like the 431s sound better. I am NOT saying the 555s are not as good, it's a personal preference.

Dun base judgement on figures. If you personally can't tell the difference, it's not worth paying for.

 

[Anders]

It seems to me that Stereoplay regards and tests headphones as an accessory, something to be used occasionally from the headphone output of a CDP or a preamp, or for portable use. I think that also is what most of their readers are interested in.
They also concentrate on products that are on the market in regular shops rather than niche products.

Obviously they don't have any amplifier that gives HD650 a fair chance, not either HD650 with an upgrade cable. Grado has a comparative advantage with portable gear and also with their reference amplifier, RA-1, which is known for synergy with Grado headphones. Their result is no surprise!

From the accessory point of view, their tests may be adequate, but of course not for testing headphones as a component in high quality audio systems.

 

[Spent&Bent]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anders It seems to me that Stereoplay regards and tests headphones as an accessory, something to be used occasionally from the headphone output of a CDP or a preamp, or for portable use. I think that also is what most of their readers are interested in. They also concentrate on products that are on the market in regular shops rather than niche products. Obviously they don't have any amplifier that gives HD650 a fair chance, not either HD650 with an upgrade cable. Grado has a comparative advantage with portable gear and also with their reference amplifier, RA-1, which is known for synergy with Grado headphones. Their result is no surprise! From the accessory point of view, their tests may be adequate, but of course not for testing headphones as a component in high quality audio systems.

Good points, it is indeed unfortunate that they probably look upon headphones as some kind of accessory while it can be a lot more useful then that

 

[Chisum]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmopragma You wouldn't believe how extremely crappy the frequency response of our ears look.

Well,

I know that. But only because our ears are so complicated things, should we add another inadequate factor in audio reproduction? Are amps supposed to have a flat frequency response or not? Audio reproduction is about accurate amplification/reproduction of all frequencies, at least within the audible range. OK, I think I should have used "coloured" instead of "******" then. I didn't mean to bash Grado cans here, because I never had the chance to listen to them. BUT, nobody can deny that there are NO high end cans on the market that have such "non-flat" frequency responses like the Grados.

Before you start bashing me, I KNOW that hearing and measurements are two different things, but again I think that it is quite strange that in case of Grado, the reviewers never give a crap about measurements, but on the other hand, for other manufacturers/products,often rely to them or even base their whole reviews on them. I mean, a magazine like stereoplay often tries to underline their "credibility" with measurements (which is ok for me, if the measurements are done well from a technical/audio engineering point of view).

What I'm trying to say (and excuse my poor english here), is that I think if any other headphone from any other manufacturer had such a "non-flat" frequency response, it would be kicked in the butt by the reviewers. That does not mean that the Grados don't sound good! On the other hand, phones with an almost flat frequency response, like for example the Beyer DT880, are often described as "boring". I mean, what is it that people are raving about this amp and that buffers and power supplies and cables and signal/noise ratio and things, but on the other hand, when it comes to the phones, don't give a ****** about measurements?

So, now transfer this to amps or speakers. Anyone will agree here, that a non-flat frequency response is not wanted or even not tolerable, when it comes to amplifiers. But with headphones, especially Grados, nobody seems to care, because they are so "exciting" or "involving" or "forward". From the measurement/audio-engineering point of view, their is no way to deny that Grados are EXTREME coloured/inaccurate. Remember that I personally own headphones, that are considered to be very coloured as well, the Sony CD3K (although I don't exactly understand why, because their measurements are not that different to Senns or Beyers).

OK, what's the conclusion here? I dont know

Maybe I get the chance to listen to a higher end Grado in the future, to see what's really the thing with them. Until then, I'll stay confused

 

[Spent&Bent]

Chisum, I suggest you listen to them at first opportunity.
Grado's get to the heart of what music is all about, and when a headphone (or any other piece of gear) succeeds in doing that a lot of music lovers will buy such a thing.... it's hard to explain in some ways but fairly logical if you love music.

 

[tom hankins]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spent&Bent Outside of this forum the RA-1 / RS-1 seems to have quite a status, probably because others are not as fixed on numbers, uinstead judge the amp / cans on how it sounds when playing music instead. I have a very strong feeling that there are lots of people here that base their purchases on measurements not on how it reproduces music, why buy all this music gear when you don't listen to the music???? I don't mean to offend but I just had to say this.

I for one have never seen a measurement or graph of any kind on any phone I've owned or heard.
Hmmmm.....Maybe thats what I was doing wrong?

 

[Chisum]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hankins I for one have never seen a measurement or graph of any kind on any phone I've owned or heard. Hmmmm.....Maybe thats what I was doing wrong?

But would you buy an amp which had a frequency response like the Himalaya as well???

 

[plainsong]

Graphs can be a tool, but trust your ears first. Otherwise, you're on the road to Audiophile Hell.

Hey, I sang opera - can I endorse the Corda line of amps?

 

[tom hankins]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chisum But would you buy an amp which had a frequency response like the Himalaya as well???

No, I would not. But headphones in so many ways are different than all my other audio findings. System matching and mainly amp/phones are so important with phones. I've been an audiophilefor more years than I care to say. But I will admit that the last year and 1/2 (time with headphones) has been a whole new world for me.