[skhan007]

Hi Everyone. I just joined today and I'm excited to start reading for hours on end and learning as much as I can here. I'm interested in putting together a headphone amp set up and was hoping to get recommendations and guidance. I'm leaning towards a tube amp set up (as I'm a guitarist and tube amp enthusiast), a good DAC, and a good set of headphones. I'm listening to mostly hard rock. 
 
In my limited research thus far, I'm really loving to look and reviews of the Woo Audio WA7 Fireflies set up (gorgeous!) and I've also read really strong reviews of the Schiit products. One review of the Woo Fireflies stated that the internal DAC was just OK, so the reviewer recommended having a good external DAC and using the WA7 as a power amp only. Not sure if owners or those familiar would agree. As for headphones, I'm completely open to suggestions, but have read great things about both Sennheiser and Oppo. Thanks in advance for any guidance!

 

[Dulalala]

  I'm leaning towards a tube amp set up (as I'm a guitarist and tube amp enthusiast), a good DAC, and a good set of headphones.

If you're a tube enthusiast, maybe consider getting Valhalla 2 and Bifrost instead of WA7 as that way you will be able to tube roll much easier that way. Also if you want that tubey sound with the Valhalla 2 you will need to tube roll anyways since the stock tubes are really neutral sounding.
 

 
One review of the Woo Fireflies stated that the internal DAC was just OK, so the reviewer recommended having a good external DAC and using the WA7 as a power amp only.
 

I wouldn't worry about the DAC in the WA7 right now too much. It's not bad, it's decent and has good synergy with the amp itself so should be fine. You can always buy an external DAC later anyways if you wish.

 

[obobskivich]

You really need to think about the headphones you're going to get as that will play a big role in amplifier selection. Starting with the amp is kind of backwards - the heaadphones themselves have the biggest impact on the system's sound.

 

[skhan007]

Thanks- I'm actually headphone shopping at the same time. I'm looking at Audeze and Sennheiser, but also learning about other brands. The tough part is finding places that have these so I can hear them in-person. It's likely that I'll have to get closed-back, as open back will infringe on others in the household. 

 

[Monsterzero]

What we hear and like is different from person to person,but I actually prefer solid state over tubes for rock and metal....tubes are too "mellow" and kind of lack bite for those genres IMO....but again it comes down to personal preference.

What was said above is very true...tube amps can be very particular about what headphones they do well with,particularly OTL amps,which essentially will only work good with high ohm headphones.

 

[a44100Hz]

What's your budget? A Sennheiser HD650, Schiit Modi Multibit, and Schiit Valhalla 2 (or its smaller cousin the Vali 2) is a very good setup for the price... if all new, about $900. Less if components are used or you get an HD6XX, etc.

 

[LightDarkSonic]

Yeah, have a pair of cheap Bravo Ocean and bought one cleartop for it even so I use it mainly with my DT 880, it has a good amount of bite and sparkle but can be a little bit sterile for most music. My other phones: HD 598, HD 449 and Yamaha pro 400 I use primarily with my E17, but I didn't enjoy nearly as much the 880 with it.

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[HotIce]

You really need to think about the headphones you're going to get as that will play a big role in amplifier selection. Starting with the amp is kind of backwards - the heaadphones themselves have the biggest impact on the system's sound.

 
+100
First, listen a bunch of HPs, and I mean, listen, not read reviews.
Getting into a decent center where you can audition some of them, might be the best money you can invest.
Forget brands, price, reviews ... just listen to what you ears are telling you.
Pick the one that fits your budget and your sound preference according to your hearing system and music you like.
Amplification and DAC comes after, and unless you picked a really hard HP to drive, you'd be surprise how little money you can dedicate to that, and still get a source chain you'd be really hard pressed in picking apart from much more expensive alternatives.

 

[skhan007]

Thanks guys. I went out today to check out some headphones. I really liked the Audeze EL8, which only really sounded good through a headphone amp. Without the amp, not so good. The Sennheiser HD700's were also really good and apparently discontinued (per the salesman's statement). The bad part is that I really don't think I can go with open back headphones. First, I can hear too much background noise and second, people around me don't want to hear my music (hence my interest in a headphone set up). 
 
That being said, I really liked the the Sennheiser HD630 set. Comfortable, sounded really good, and closed back. I noticed the HD700's were more trebly, but not in a bad way. I did a bit A/B between them with the same digital music player source they had on display. 
 
I did really want to hear the Audeze Sine, but they didn't have that one in-stock. I like the idea of the lightning cable for on-the-go use. I know there are likely a lot more to check out, but if I were making a decision from the few I heard today, I liked the HD630.

 

[obobskivich]

Nothing wrong at all with going what sounds good to you - after all, you're the one that has to/gets to use it.

As far as open back cans and leakage - it's really not that atrocious with most open cans, at least if you listen at normal volumes. It's much louder from your perspective than it is from other people's perspective. Two easy tests you can do are to set your headphones up at whatever level you find comfortable, hold them at arm's length, see how audible they are, and then further that by placing them on a table/shelf/wherever and walking a few paces away and seeing how audible they are then.

Generally speaking even with open-back cans, you aren't going to be noticed by (let alone annoy) people in another room, but if you're sitting right next to someone in a very quiet environment (e.g. in a library) then yes it could be obnoxious. Not at all trying to promote one over the other - there are many great sounding closed cans out there, but depending on your specific circumstances, you may not have to write open cans off entirely. For mobile use I wouldn't bother with open cans though.

As far as the amplifier goes, once you've picked out a headphone that you're going to get, then you need to find a compatible amplifier. Many tube amplifiers are OTLs, which won't pair nicely with low impedance loads (in some cases this can be dangerous for the amplifier or load), and many closed cans tend towards lower impedance. You can get tube amps that play nice with low impedance loads (output transformer coupled models or hybrids), or go with solid state, or find closed cans with high load impedance that you like (they're relatively rare these days, but AKG, Koss, Beyerdynamic, and German Maestro still make a few). This is why I said going "amplifier first" is not so great of a strategy - it's putting the cart before the horse in many cases. Just food for thought.

 

[mwhals]

ZMF has some really nice headphones that are all closed and sound good with most genres and work very well with tube amps. The owner of the business is here on Head-Fi, zach915m. He was or is also into guitars, so tends to tune his headphones to sound good with guitars. Shoot him a message and check out the website, http://www.zmfheadphones.com/.

 

[skhan007]

Nothing wrong at all with going what sounds good to you - after all, you're the one that has to/gets to use it.

As far as open back cans and leakage - it's really not that atrocious with most open cans, at least if you listen at normal volumes. It's much louder from your perspective than it is from other people's perspective. Two easy tests you can do are to set your headphones up at whatever level you find comfortable, hold them at arm's length, see how audible they are, and then further that by placing them on a table/shelf/wherever and walking a few paces away and seeing how audible they are then.

Generally speaking even with open-back cans, you aren't going to be noticed by (let alone annoy) people in another room, but if you're sitting right next to someone in a very quiet environment (e.g. in a library) then yes it could be obnoxious. Not at all trying to promote one over the other - there are many great sounding closed cans out there, but depending on your specific circumstances, you may not have to write open cans off entirely. For mobile use I wouldn't bother with open cans though.

As far as the amplifier goes, once you've picked out a headphone that you're going to get, then you need to find a compatible amplifier. Many tube amplifiers are OTLs, which won't pair nicely with low impedance loads (in some cases this can be dangerous for the amplifier or load), and many closed cans tend towards lower impedance.

You can get tube amps that play nice with low impedance loads (output transformer coupled models or hybrids), or go with solid state, or find closed cans with high load impedance that you like (they're relatively rare these days, but AKG, Koss, Beyerdynamic, and German Maestro still make a few). This is why I said going "amplifier first" is not so great of a strategy - it's putting the cart before the horse in many cases. Just food for thought.

Thanks, I hear what you're saying. I liked the sound of the Audeze EL8 open backs. Curious of the EL8 closed-backs would be a good choice. For me, there's noise in my environment with the kids running around (which would interfere with my listening with open backs, as they didn't seem to block out the external environment very much) and if I'm chilling while the wife is watching TV, she would likely complain if she can hear any trace of my headphones leaking sound. For this reason, closed back headphones would be more preferable to a divorce . 
 
Regarding getting the headphones before the amp set up- OK, if I went with the Senn HD630 or the Audeze Sine (haven't heard these yet, but hope to), I know these are both low impedance (roughly 20 Ohms), so both would work great with ALAC or AAC files on my ipod/iphone. Does this mean that they would not be a good match for a headphone amp? I'm curious, as I've got my eye on a Schiit Bifrost multibit/ Lyr2 set up that someone has for sale locally or I may consider the Woo Audio Fireflies WA7. 
 
I hope it's not a strange request to want a set of headphones that I could use with my mobile devices as well as sitting down with a nice tube amp. 

 

[obobskivich]

Thanks, I hear what you're saying. I liked the sound of the Audeze EL8 open backs. Curious of the EL8 closed-backs would be a good choice. For me, there's noise in my environment with the kids running around (which would interfere with my listening with open backs, as they didn't seem to block out the external environment very much) and if I'm chilling while the wife is watching TV, she would likely complain if she can hear any trace of my headphones leaking sound. For this reason, closed back headphones would be more preferable to a divorce . 

Regarding getting the headphones before the amp set up- OK, if I went with the Senn HD630 or the Audeze Sine (haven't heard these yet, but hope to), I know these are both low impedance (roughly 20 Ohms), so both would work great with ALAC or AAC files on my ipod/iphone. Does this mean that they would not be a good match for a headphone amp? I'm curious, as I've got my eye on a Schiit Bifrost multibit/ Lyr2 set up that someone has for sale locally or I may consider the Woo Audio Fireflies WA7. 

I hope it's not a strange request to want a set of headphones that I could use with my mobile devices as well as sitting down with a nice tube amp. 

Headphone amp != tube amp. Lower impedance headphones generally means solid state amplification, like say the CI Audio VHP, or the Schiit Asgard. It can also mean hybrids (like Schiit Lyr), or transformer-coupled amps (like Woo WA6). But the vast majority of OTLs are not a good choice with 20 ohm loads - many of them counter-indicate it for safety reasons (as in, you may potentially damage the amplifier). Running high impedance cans off your phone is also probably not going to work very well, but lower impedance loads may work fine there (depends on sensitivity, how awful the phone is, etc). Impedance is not, by itself, some sort of "hard to drive" metric, but it does dictate compatibility with the amplifier you're hooking into.

Ultimately it looks like you're after two setups - something for mobile use, and something for home use. Personally I would never bother with full-size cans "on the go" because they're just a lot of bulk and hassle. If it were me, I'd grab some inexpensive IEMs for mobile use, and worry about your at-home setup. You seem chained to the idea of a tube amp, so either prepare to spend a not insignificant amount of money on a tube amp that can handle low impedance loads, or the amplifier is going to dictate what headphones you get to buy. Personally I'd let the discussion be driven by the cans, as they will (by far) have the most significant impact on the system's sound, and that's where the most focus and cash should be expended. Again, IMHO. You're of course welcome to take or leave any advice you're given, and it is ultimately your money to do with as you please.

 

[dudlew]

Headphone amp != tube amp. Lower impedance headphones generally means solid state amplification, like say the CI Audio VHP, or the Schiit Asgard. It can also mean hybrids (like Schiit Lyr), or transformer-coupled amps (like Woo WA6). But the vast majority of OTLs are not a good choice with 20 ohm loads - many of them counter-indicate it for safety reasons (as in, you may potentially damage the amplifier). Running high impedance cans off your phone is also probably not going to work very well, but lower impedance loads may work fine there (depends on sensitivity, how awful the phone is, etc). Impedance is not, by itself, some sort of "hard to drive" metric, but it does dictate compatibility with the amplifier you're hooking into.

Ultimately it looks like you're after two setups - something for mobile use, and something for home use. Personally I would never bother with full-size cans "on the go" because they're just a lot of bulk and hassle. If it were me, I'd grab some inexpensive IEMs for mobile use, and worry about your at-home setup. You seem chained to the idea of a tube amp, so either prepare to spend a not insignificant amount of money on a tube amp that can handle low impedance loads, or the amplifier is going to dictate what headphones you get to buy. Personally I'd let the discussion be driven by the cans, as they will (by far) have the most significant impact on the system's sound, and that's where the most focus and cash should be expended. Again, IMHO. You're of course welcome to take or leave any advice you're given, and it is ultimately your money to do with as you please.[/quote

Well u kinda answered his question... as he made note of three headphones . The senn 630.. the el8 and sine. He mentioned hearing the el8 open and the 630 vb. So with those headphones in mind ur rec of the lyrics might be worthwhile as its a hybrid that should work with the lower impedance cans and also have the power to future proof him. So that's a start right there.

My opinion is that once u can vary the gain... get as much power as u can as u won't be sure what u may get in the future. Head first is a slippery slope. I started off with a senn 497... have bought the DT235 k81dj Sony mdr1 r and 7520 Oppo pm3 and now the nighthawk. Add to that the modi the pa2v2 the e12k and Burson soloist sl.... it's not where I thought I would be.... all my cans can be driven with the e11k with no issues as they are low impedance... but I didn't want to deal with tubes and wanted something with enough power for future proofing... just in case......

I am rambling though. With the headphones u mentioned... u just have to make sure u choose an amp that can handle the impedance load and with enough power to future proof urself. Some food for thought. From what I have read... planers have a flat impedance... not wildly varying like dynamics... so mightmight have different requirements because of that. Check that aspect out and see if that affects the amp u can use as well if u are considering planars

 

[obobskivich]

Well u kinda answered his question... as he made note of three headphones . The senn 630.. the el8 and sine. He mentioned hearing the el8 open and the 630 vb. So with those headphones in mind ur rec of the lyrics might be worthwhile as its a hybrid that should work with the lower impedance cans and also have the power to future proof him. So that's a start right there.

Note: I was not recommending any of those products, simply using them as examples. I have not owned any of the Schiit products. I do know that Schiit does not recommend the Lyr with low impedance/high sensitivity sets, due to its massive output power (which makes it potentially dangerous both to the headphones and the user's hearing).

My opinion is that once u can vary the gain... get as much power as u can as u won't be sure what u may get in the future. Head first is a slippery slope. I started off with a senn 497... have bought the DT235 k81dj Sony mdr1 r and 7520 Oppo pm3 and now the nighthawk. Add to that the modi the pa2v2 the e12k and Burson soloist sl.... it's not where I thought I would be.... all my cans can be driven with the e11k with no issues as they are low impedance... but I didn't want to deal with tubes and wanted something with enough power for future proofing... just in case......

If you're not at all interested in discussing synergy or what-have-you (and I do realize this is a fairly subjective topic), most dedicated amplifiers will handle the majority of headphones on the market, with the exception of some more esoteric choices (which usually need amplifiers that aren't as universal). If you're going to consider synergy, then "headphone first" is even more pertinent, as you have to know what you're matching up to. Compatibility would be the only other discussion, which is moot if OTLs and more esoteric amplifiers aren't on the table.

I am rambling though. With the headphones u mentioned... u just have to make sure u choose an amp that can handle the impedance load and with enough power to future proof urself. Some food for thought. From what I have read... planers have a flat impedance... not wildly varying like dynamics... so mightmight have different requirements because of that. Check that aspect out and see if that affects the amp u can use as well if u are considering planars

Planar magnetics are generally a resistive load, so their frequency response is more or less unaffected by source impedance. The only consideration is power transfer, which even there is fairly minimal/academic. The amplifier simply needs enough power to run them at a reasonable output level, keeping in mind their (generally) lower than average sensitivity.

Dynamic headphones cannot be summarized as "wildly varying" in terms of impedance - some are relatively reactive, some are not. More reactive loads will vary with respect to source impedance, but there's no "truth" to what they "should" look like beyond that. Depending on specific context, this may have an audible impact on frequency response, and be interpreted by different users in different ways (e.g. some people may hear it and go "wow that's great" and others may go "wow that's awful.")