[Kabonfaiba]

I've began my venture into HiFi headphones recently. Did all the research in the world and settled on the Philips Fidelio x2 as my first logical purchase.
 
I was trying to replicate my JBL 2.1 studio monitor's for my head, so I went looking for open-back; thinking I wanted as airy sound as possible. Well it turns out going open-back wasn't the giant leap in audio fidelity I was hoping for.
 
Since I'd probably have to spend thousands more of my cash to get studio monitor levels of fidelity in my headphones, I thought; it's not possible at this price point so I'll change direction.
 
I'll sacrifice the ideals of open-back and bring back the sub-bass which I sorely miss when I can't have my subwoofer running. I'm back to square one with my research since I was only focusing on open back previously. Therefore, I need suggestions for closed back full-size headphones with the same signature as the X2, musical, fun (the Sennheiser warmth) but with subwoofer extension and slam for my head.
 
I would like stereo width as wide as possible. In MPC-HC (specifically the fddshow audio decoder) there is a "expand stereo to surround" option in the mixer - I usually have this at 120% - 140% so that instrumentals are increased and vocals get recessed. - That's an practical idea of the sound stage I'm looking to be done naturally by a headphone if possible.
 
So far I've got sights on Focal spirit classic, Sennheiser momentum 2.0, NAD VISO HP50, etc.
 
I would like to try planar magnetic but I fear they'll be too big, heavy and expensive. The Fidelio X2 is about as big as I'm comfortable with, but a bit smaller next time would be better.
 
I also need these headphones to be drum monitors as a secondary purpose (for an e-kit mind you, not acoustic "extreme" levels of isolation) so they need to be lightweight and comfortable.
 
Primarily I need them for music though, I listen to a lot of loaded and busy music normally. The Fidelio X2 excels at quieter tracks where the instruments have time to breathe. - I'm not finding much use for this, as when volumes get jacked for metal / rock, the X2 becomes as congested as my old Sennheiser HD202. So I need something that doesn't fall apart at higher volumes.
 
Thank you for taking an interest!

 

[cel4145]

So you want a wider soundstage for stereo effect, but are considering closed headphones over the X2? Not likely to happen.

Now you have also said that the X2 gets "congested" at higher volumes. What are you using as your player (make/model)? Are you running it near or at maximum volume when that happens? If so, could be the amplifier is clipping creating the congestion.

 

[Kabonfaiba]

Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer - PCI sound card - Used mostly when listening to music.
 
Roland Octa-capture USB audio interface - Used mostly when drum monitoring.
 
The Octacapture has a lower noise floor and slightly cleaner signal, but X-fi has Crystalizer which tightens the bass up nicely. Really subtle differences between them though, if any.
 
The congested issue only tends to happen in busy music, like live performances.
 
X-Fi: windows volume at 60%, MPC 100%
 
Octa-capture: windows volume at 100%, MPC 100%, and Main out 70%.
 
The HD202 and the X2 are neck and neck in terms of sound congestion at this volume. My sources are never below 320kbps, sometimes FLAC. This is with +10db EQ boost at 32hz on both headphones, and -10db volume cut (pre-EQ) to stop any peaking.
 
When running flat, I can't run them anywhere near 60% volume of course because they both become way too loud and fatiguing.
 
Bass level is barely heard when flat though. It's a completely neutral with a warm signature just like reviews say. But no sub bass presence at all even with my EQ boost.
 
If I have to sacrifice a wider soundstage to get sub bass out of a headphone, so be it!

As I said, change of direction. I spent 6x more on the X2 than the HD202 for about 1.5x increase in sound clarity, and better airy treble. I don't think that's worth it imo.

 

[DisCHORDDubstep]

Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer - PCI sound card - Used mostly when listening to music.

Roland Octa-capture USB audio interface - Used mostly when drum monitoring.

The Octacapture has a lower noise floor and slightly cleaner signal, but X-fi has Crystalizer which tightens the bass up nicely. Really subtle differences between them though, if any.

The congested issue only tends to happen in busy music, like live performances.

X-Fi: windows volume at 60%, MPC 100%

Octa-capture: windows volume at 100%, MPC 100%, and Main out 70%.

The HD202 and the X2 are neck and neck in terms of sound congestion at this volume. My sources are never below 320kbps, sometimes FLAC. This is with +10db EQ boost at 32hz on both headphones, and -10db volume cut (pre-EQ) to stop any peaking.

When running flat, I can't run them anywhere near 60% volume of course because they both become way too loud and fatiguing.

Bass level is barely heard when flat though. It's a completely neutral with a warm signature just like reviews say. But no sub bass presence at all even with my EQ boost.

If I have to sacrifice a wider soundstage to get sub bass out of a headphone, so be it! As I said, change of direction. I spent 6x more on the X2 than the HD202 for about 1.5x increase in sound clarity, and better airy treble. I don't think that's worth it imo.

buy a used Hifiman HE500 or a new HE-400i then

 

[serman005]

I wonder if you should be looking at the v-moda M-100, in order to meet your need for "slam" and subwoofer-like extension, which it may provide. And what about the DT770 Pro 80? Perhaps you could listen to those two cans and see what you think. Otherwise, I think you are looking at a much higher cash outlay for the can you are seeking than you made for your X2.

 

[Kabonfaiba]

buy a used Hifiman HE500 or a new HE-400i then

 
£375 for new HiFiMAN HE-400i !!!
 
I paid £180 for my X2.
 
The HE-500 are really too heavy for me sorry.
 
Doesn't seem fair, better start saving I guess.

 
 

  I wonder if you should be looking at the v-moda M-100, in order to meet your need for "slam" and subwoofer-like extension, which it may provide. And what about the DT770 Pro 80? Perhaps you could listen to those two cans and see what you think. Otherwise, I think you are looking at a much higher cash outlay for the can you are seeking than you made for your X2.

 
Thanks I'll take a look, the DT770 was on my mind before I started looking at open back, and the v-moda M-100 is on Tyll's HOF, frequency response is to my liking, but bass response looks a little slow. This will require some serious reading me thinks.

 

[Danpyre]

  I wonder if you should be looking at the v-moda M-100, in order to meet your need for "slam" and subwoofer-like extension, which it may provide. And what about the DT770 Pro 80? Perhaps you could listen to those two cans and see what you think. Otherwise, I think you are looking at a much higher cash outlay for the can you are seeking than you made for your X2.

M100 should be your option only when you need the durability, customer service, and looks.  You can find better for the price.
I've heard people really liking the bass of the HE-400.

 

[DisCHORDDubstep]

M100 should be your option only when you need the durability, customer service, and looks.  You can find better for the price.
I've heard people really liking the bass of the HE-400.

Original HE-400 might be cheap now.

 

[falcontx]

I've had the DT770 Pro 80 for a couple years and love it. Definitely give it a shot! I got mine used a few years back for $100.

 

[Music Alchemist]

First you say you want studio monitor sound, then you say you want something warm and fun...?
 
If you are already considering the Focal Spirit Classic, and you want studio monitor sound, I would recommend getting the Focal Spirit Professional. It is my favorite headphone out of all the ones I've heard so far, even pitted against much more expensive models. It sounds excellent with everything due to its very neutral frequency response, mylar / titanium alloy drivers, and probably other factors. And if you want more bass than neutral, you can always use EQ. Neutral bass is actually quite strong when there is heavy bass in the music, since it's just reproducing the amount of bass that is actually there.

 

[cel4145]

Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer - PCI sound card - Used mostly when listening to music.

Roland Octa-capture USB audio interface - Used mostly when drum monitoring.

The Octacapture has a lower noise floor and slightly cleaner signal, but X-fi has Crystalizer which tightens the bass up nicely. Really subtle differences between them though, if any.

The congested issue only tends to happen in busy music, like live performances.

X-Fi: windows volume at 60%, MPC 100%

Octa-capture: windows volume at 100%, MPC 100%, and Main out 70%.

The HD202 and the X2 are neck and neck in terms of sound congestion at this volume. My sources are never below 320kbps, sometimes FLAC. This is with +10db EQ boost at 32hz on both headphones, and -10db volume cut (pre-EQ) to stop any peaking.

When running flat, I can't run them anywhere near 60% volume of course because they both become way too loud and fatiguing.

Bass level is barely heard when flat though. It's a completely neutral with a warm signature just like reviews say. But no sub bass presence at all even with my EQ boost.

If I have to sacrifice a wider soundstage to get sub bass out of a headphone, so be it! As I said, change of direction. I spent 6x more on the X2 than the HD202 for about 1.5x increase in sound clarity, and better airy treble. I don't think that's worth it imo.

I'm not sure that the Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer actually has a headphone amp (research that). I just know that some of the legacy Creative cards do not. For instance, when you don't have a headphone amp with low output impedance 1/8 or better than the headphone amp, this will create problems with the quality of the bass reproduction. So this could be part of your problem. Something simple like a Fiio E11K could certainly improve the sound a good bit.

I also find that many rock live performances also don't have the same level of instrument separation as studio albums. So if you find the stereo imaging acceptable on studio albums, but not live albums, it's probably the recordings that are the issue.

 

[Kabonfaiba]

  First you say you want studio monitor sound, then you say you want something warm and fun...?
 

 
Sorry I didn't make it very clear. Getting a flat studio monitor sound in a headphone was my original intention when I purchased the X2. Then I hit a bombshell and realized although the X2 is flat, it's quite a long way off the musical fidelity and emotion my JBL LSR's give me (It's my first dabble into hifi headphones really) I speculated; large headphones, big 50mm drivers, ears close to speakers = easy to do great sound and bass at a lower cost.
 
So since I can't have studio monitor sound in an headphone without spending about £1000 on a HD800 plus more on amp I'll go back to what I love best about headphones, a lovely warm and involving pair that isn't bent on being flat or analytical.
 

I'm not sure that the Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer actually has a headphone amp (research that). I just know that some of the legacy Creative cards do not. For instance, when you don't have a headphone amp with low output impedance 1/8 or better than the headphone amp, this will create problems with the quality of the bass reproduction. So this could be part of your problem. Something simple like a Fiio E11K could certainly improve the sound a good bit.

I also find that many rock live performances also don't have the same level of instrument separation as studio albums. So if you find the stereo imaging acceptable on studio albums, but not live albums, it's probably the recordings that are the issue.

 
You gave me a brainwave, I took my headphones out and tried them with my test track to see if the bass extension improved. I tried a Denon CHR-F103 and a Pioneer DVD player, alas neither of them made the X2's sound any better, if anything they sounded under powered and treble rolled off sooner compared to the X-Fi. Tried different cables too.
 
For those interested I uploaded a segment from one of my test tracks here that tests for 35hz sub bass and an identical file with the EQ boost 35hz +15dB 0.4 oct

 

[cel4145]

Sounds like you want a headphone to be a subwoofer, too. Heavy 35hz bass extension? Just not very common. Now some of the planar magnetics have deep bass extension to 35hz, but they don't have tremendously boosted bass over most of the other frequencies.

But here. Start searching for what you want yourself. Headphone frequency charts

http://www.innerfidelity.com/headphone-data-sheet-downloads
http://www.headphone.com/pages/build-a-graph
http://en.goldenears.net/GR_Headphones

 

[Music Alchemist]

  Sorry I didn't make it very clear. Getting a flat studio monitor sound in a headphone was my original intention when I purchased the X2. Then I hit a bombshell and realized although the X2 is flat, it's quite a long way off the musical fidelity and emotion my JBL LSR's give me (It's my first dabble into hifi headphones really) I speculated; large headphones, big 50mm drivers, ears close to speakers = easy to do great sound and bass at a lower cost.
 
So since I can't have studio monitor sound in an headphone without spending about £1000 on a HD800 plus more on amp I'll go back to what I love best about headphones, a lovely warm and involving pair that isn't bent on being flat or analytical.

 
Not sure where you got the idea that the X2 is flat. No transducer is perfectly neutral. Many are much closer to neutral than others. But just because you tried one headphone and were disappointed does not mean others are the same. And it doesn't mean you have to spend big bucks to get pretty accurate sound.
 
Look at these measurements for the Focal Spirit Professional. Its bass is almost perfectly accurate.
 
The HD 800 is not the headphone to get if you want accurate bass. Look how much weaker than neutral its bass is.
 
(Of course, you can boost the bass with EQ, but as I'm sure you know, each headphone is going to sound different no matter how you EQ it.)

 

[Kabonfaiba]

Narrowed my choice down to NAD HP50 - my ideal subbass responce, shame about the looks and glossy plasticy build.
Sennheiser Momentum 2 - probably best midrange, reduced treble veil, bigger earcups, very lightwieght, not fussed about the hinges.
Focal Spirit Pro - good value and robust, better bass response than the momentum, but worried they might get harsh at higher volumes.
DT770 Pro 80 - Great value, but I don't mind spending a little more for better SQ.
 
It would be nice to see what Tyll thinks of the Momentum 2 since the originals got dislodged from the WoF. MacedonianHero seems to be the only person whose had them all. He thinks they are much improved, so much better that they top the HP50. I'm tempted to try them as a next step.