[slim.a]

The Truth About Interconnects and Cables — Reviews and News from Audioholics

While reading this thread (http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/be...-300-a-459752/) started by rosgr63, someone linked to the article above.
I read that article and there are many things that bother me about it:


The name of the article:

Just by naming something the “truth” doesn’t necessarily make it the truth.
By the way, it would have been wiser to call it “my opinion” or even “my truth”. Indeed, throughout history, scientists have been proven wrong many times. They were right until the next best theory replaced what the “common sense” dictated as the “truth” in the previous period.

Measurements:

I have seen in this article and others for that matter many talks about measurements.
Here are examples of the statements you can usually read in those articles:
“The only characteristics that matter are inductance, capacitance …”
“The only useful bandwidth is between 20hz and 20khz …”
“The cable change won’t affect the sound by more than 1db in the audio bandwidth, which would be inaudible …”
As far as I recall, most of those measurements are static measurements and do not take into account the dynamics of the music. I don’t see much talk about such things as “rise time” and when there is a difference, it is quickly discarded and said being inaudible.
While I can go for a long time talking about technical stuff (phase shift, memory effect, dielectric …) I won’t and I am going to make a simple analogy with cars.
When comparing a basic interconnect with a high performance one by saying both cover the 20hz-20khz bandwidth the same way, it is like saying that because a Bugatti Veyron and a Fiat Punto both can do 130km/h in highway, the feel of the drive is the same. They don't take into account how fast they both get to 130km/h or the "comfort" in taking a turn at that speed...

ABX tests:

To continue with the car analogy, let’s say that interconnects (for the hifi equipment) are the equivalent of tires (for a car).
If we wanted to compare different compositions of a tire, what would be the requirements for conducting a proper test? In my opinion, some of the “ingredients” would be :
1.a skilled driver
2.a driver who is rested
3.a driver who is familiar with the car he is testing
4.a proper car (a bugatti might just be more revealing than a Fiat)
5.a proper test track
If we just threw a driver in a car he is not familiar in a test track he doesn’t and he is not used to do such comparisons, you can guess the result.

If a few ABX tests are done in a “audiophile” system composed with all the audiophile “nonsense” (such as a speaker system based on Wilson Audio Alexandria, Audio Research amps and preamps, DCS transport and DAC, high grade cables throughout, isolation & vibration treatment, …) and only ONE of the interconnects or speaker cables or power cords is swapped and someone who is familiar with the system doesn’t notice, then I would really believe that all this talk about cables is total nonsense and people are having mass hallucinations. However, if an ABX test is done in a system people are not familiar with or a system that is not resolving enough, I really don’t care about the outcome of the result. I would really continue to believe what my ears are telling me and so should the many others who have noticed big differences in their system.


Wrapping up:

First, this post is just a reflection of my opinion on the subject of cables and I have no pretentions to hold the truth about this subject.

Second, while I believe that differences are noticeable and real, I also believe that the extent of the differences depend on too many factors (including both the listener and his/her equipment) to predict how much difference it will make on a particular system. So it is best to try before buying whenever it is possible.

Third, I believe that sometimes people miss the main point of the audiophile community. As far as I understand, the goal of many audiophiles when they buy/upgrade their gear is to get a better performance in order to increase their enjoyment of their system.
Let’s take an extreme example, if by using a $1000 power cord I can get each time I listen to my system a gigantic enhancement in performance (soundstage, details …) I would buy it without remorse. By being pragmatic, I don’t care if the additional enjoyment is “real” or just “placebo”.

Fourth, I wish/hope that whenever someone asks a question about cables (or jitter), people would let the discussion go on and not consistently drag those threads in an endless discuss about changes in cables being not audible or barely audible.

Finally, enjoy your system. Whether you are a cable believer or non cable believer, the goal behind this “hobby” is to ENJOY your music.

 

[astroid]

If you cant identify a cable swap blind then they sound the same (too you).
Its simple, no need for pointless debates about placebo or ear quality.
The general opinion here is "i like my cable, it sounds better".
No point in testing it in this case as the owner has already achieved happiness, testing it will either confirm your happiness or make you miserable - quit while your ahead.

 

[SoupRKnowva]

I've never been a big believer in cables myself. BUt recently after reading what everyone here has been saying, i realized, that this many people couldnt possibly be wrong could they??? So i decided on my jh13 purchase that i was gonna get some better cables, cause i figured that if there was a headphone where i could tell the difference it would be these ones. So i wrote craig at whiplash audio, and i ordered myself a TWag LOD, TWag replacement cable for the jh13's and then i ordered a 12foot TWag cable to run from my Audio GD DAC-19Mk3. I figured that i needed that 12 footer, cause if i wasnt gonna run nice cables the whole way i didnt see any reason to run them at all, once the sound got "degraded" as it were getting the the amp, what would better cables do from the jack to my ears? but anyways, onc i get my headphones and DAC and amp, all of which are on order, though the amp, is my first amp, and is the PIco Slim, so that might be a while. I will be coming back to give some sort of testimonial on my opinion of cables

so ill try to spend close to a week with the stock jh13 cable before i switch to see if i can tell a difference.

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by slim.a /img/forum/go_quote.gif While I can go for a long time talking about technical stuff (phase shift, memory effect, dielectric …) I won’t and I am going to make a simple analogy with cars.

Oh dear God no. Not another car analogy!

Quote:

If a few ABX tests are done in a “audiophile” system composed with all the audiophile “nonsense” (such as a speaker system based on Wilson Audio Alexandria, Audio Research amps and preamps, DCS transport and DAC, high grade cables throughout, isolation & vibration treatment, …) and only ONE of the interconnects or speaker cables or power cords is swapped and someone who is familiar with the system doesn’t notice, then I would really believe that all this talk about cables is total nonsense and people are having mass hallucinations. However, if an ABX test is done in a system people are not familiar with or a system that is not resolving enough, I really don’t care about the outcome of the result. I would really continue to believe what my ears are telling me and so should the many others who have noticed big differences in their system.

Tom Noisaine has done a number of ABX tests using high end systems. In fact, they were done in the owner's own home and where they were able to do the testing at their leisure, taking as much time as they wished. One gentleman had the ABX system at his house for nearly a year if memory serves.

Nada.

If you'd like, you can contact Tom and get more details about this.

Nousaine.com - The Archived Works of Tom Nousaine

Quote:

Let’s take an extreme example, if by using a $1000 power cord I can get each time I listen to my system a gigantic enhancement in performance (soundstage, details …) I would buy it without remorse. By being pragmatic, I don’t care if the additional enjoyment is “real” or just “placebo”.

Nothing to argue with there. I take the same approach myself.

Quote:

Fourth, I wish/hope that whenever someone asks a question about cables (or jitter), people would let the discussion go on and not consistently drag those threads in an endless discuss about changes in cables being not audible or barely audible.

But it would certainly be nice if someone would once and for all demonstrate actual audible differences. This subject has been argued about for decades. And more arguing and all the car analogies in the world isn't going to change anything.

Quote:

Finally, enjoy your system. Whether you are a cable believer or non cable believer, the goal behind this “hobby” is to ENJOY your music.

Absolutely!

se

 

[TopPop]

Well put.

Read... and agreed.

 

[rosgr63]

Quote:

Originally Posted by slim.a /img/forum/go_quote.gif Finally, enjoy your system. Whether you are a cable believer or non cable believer, the goal behind this “hobby” is to ENJOY your music.

Great article.
I agree with your statements and in particular the last one.

This is a hobby, enjoy the music through headphones.

 

[tosehee]

Cables do matter, but most people make a abx testing with 5 second swapping in between. I highly doubt that'll reveal any difference even if there is. Finally, once you reach certain level, the differences aren't that major.

Agreed mostly with your statements.

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tosehee /img/forum/go_quote.gif Cables do matter, but most people make a abx testing with 5 second swapping in between.

Says who? Can you cite a few specific tests where this was the case? I'm not aware of a single one.

se

 

[wavoman]

OP -- great post!

If a cable sounds better to me, then it sounds better (to me). Duh.

Real or placebo, matters not. I hear what I hear, by definition.

Yes maybe you can force me to see my belief is false, and prove I can't hear a difference even though I thought I did (and therefore did). All you have done is diminished my enjoyment of life. And what's the point of that?

To not spend money on cables? I have an easy answer -- don't spend the money if you don't want to. But if it sounds better to you, and you can afford it, buy it. It will always sound better. Stay away from the DBT, it won't do a thing to add to your pleasure.

Having said that, I like DBTs and believe in them. There is no contradiction here -- think about it. Facts are facts, DBTs reveal facts. This has nothing to do with the pleasure I get from listening to my purchases, both equipment (cables) and recordings.

Adding to knowledge and adding to pleasure are very different. Don't tell me, on any objective scale, how pretty or sexy my wife is. I already feel she is a 10 from every angle, and I also know she is not.

 

[Necrolic]

While cables make some difference, they don't make much after a certain point. If you're going for a $20 to a $200 cable, you're going to notice a difference, but a $150 to $200 is going to be very similar if not the same.

I was completely against high end cables until recently, and now I'm having my headphones recabled with Blue Dragon and getting the matching power cord and coaxial cable

 

[Uncle Erik]

The problem with buying a $1,000 power cord that may or may not make a difference is that it costs $1,000.

That's a significant amount of money.

If we were arguing over $10 and $20 cables, I'd say go ahead and buy what you want.

As for mass delusions... take you pick. How about the real estate bubble or the prior bubble - stock in online companies that don't turn a profit? Can you explain those? If you want some historical examples, try the Salem Witch Trials or the infamous tulip bubble. For a more recent delusion, read up on the "penis theft" phenomenon that turns up in Africa. Also check out early 20th century quack medicine. For an entertaining - and horrifying - read, search out the Radium Ore Revigator. Oh, and run a search for the Sunshine Radon Health Mine. Yes, it is still in operation and no, it is not a joke. Keep in mind that those who deliberately irradiate themselves (past and present) truly believe they're doing something healthy.

People do all sorts of crazy things. It's hard to find a time or situation when humans act rationally.

My take on cables is that the "differences" are entirely placebo. That's from looking at a sum of the evidence. Electrical testing is at an advanced stage. Not perfect, but fine measurements of subatomic particles are routinely made. Anything that falls within the realm of human perception ought to be measurable. Yet it never has been accomplished with cables. Second, listeners always fail unsighted tests. People even give high marks to coathangers, paper clips, degraded cables, etc. Third, cable "technology" has never been applied to a field outside of audiophilia. If there were genuine benefits, you better believe they'd be exploited in semiconductors and other fine electronic applications. That doesn't happen. Finally, placebo is a well-known phenemenon and has been studied at length in medical and other trials. Placebo is real and absolutely affects human perception. If you want to measure human perception, you absolutely have to control for placebo. You have to take preconceptions and expectations out of the loop if you want accuracy.

If someone wants to demonstrate that cables "work," they will have to show a physical difference with test equipment and also demonstrate that people can hear it without placebo. This also needs to be peer reviewed and repeatable by others.

I am willing to accept results under these methods. If I am wrong, I willadmit it and happily buy cables to improve my system. Until then, however, I willontinue to use my $1 power cords. Those measure great, by the way. I get the same readings off them that I get directly out of the socket.

 

[The-One]

Look, the whole cable controversy is basically caused by a few guys who spends mega bucks on their cables $$$ and then tell the world it sounds so brilliant like it's as if the cables could fly to Mars.

I think the cables do make a difference, heck I even plugged in an aftermarket power cord into my subwoofer and I think it improved the bass. But they cost like 1/20 of the component it's plugged into. If nothing else, I have nicer looking cables.

Cables is like that last bit of icing on the cake, but you have to have the cake first. Some people go on like if the icing was all that it mattered. It does improve the sound, but always slightly, and is mostly an afterthought, AFTER you're happy with the components you got. You'd be mad to buy more expensive cables if you weren't happy with your can/iems/speakers/sub in the first place.

 

[slim.a]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopPop /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well put. Read... and agreed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rosgr63 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Great article. I agree with your statements and in particular the last one. This is a hobby, enjoy the music through headphones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavoman /img/forum/go_quote.gif OP -- great post! If a cable sounds better to me, then it sounds better (to me). Duh. Real or placebo, matters not. I hear what I hear, by definition. Yes maybe you can force me to see my belief is false, and prove I can't hear a difference even though I thought I did (and therefore did). All you have done is diminished my enjoyment of life. And what's the point of that? To not spend money on cables? I have an easy answer -- don't spend the money if you don't want to. But if it sounds better to you, and you can afford it, buy it. It will always sound better. Stay away from the DBT, it won't do a thing to add to your pleasure. Having said that, I like DBTs and believe in them. There is no contradiction here -- think about it. Facts are facts, DBTs reveal facts. This has nothing to do with the pleasure I get from listening to my purchases, both equipment (cables) and recordings. Adding to knowledge and adding to pleasure are very different. Don't tell me, on any objective scale, how pretty or sexy my wife is. I already feel she is a 10 from every angle, and I also know she is not.

Thanks for the appreciation guys!

As for DBT tests, I am not really against them. By the way, to make sure I could hear the difference between 320kbps mp3s and FLAC/WAV, I did some ABX test with the Foobar plugin and I was able to reliably identify the mp3 version from the original file. And those differences are (to my ears) more subtle than what I get when switching interconnects or power cords.

 

[slim.a]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The-One /img/forum/go_quote.gif Look, the whole cable controversy is basically caused by a few guys who spends mega bucks on their cables $$$ and then tell the world it sounds so brilliant like it's as if the cables could fly to Mars. I think the cables do make a difference, heck I even plugged in an aftermarket power cord into my subwoofer and I think it improved the bass. But they cost like 1/20 of the component it's plugged into. If nothing else, I have nicer looking cables. Cables is like that last bit of icing on the cake, but you have to have the cake first. Some people go on like if the icing was all that it mattered. It does improve the sound, but always slightly, and is mostly an afterthought, AFTER you're happy with the components you got. You'd be mad to buy more expensive cables if you weren't happy with your can/iems/speakers/sub in the first place.

I also believe that it is important to not spend money on cables for a system you are not happy with. And by the way, an expensive cable does not necessarily mean it is a good quality cable. However, I haven't found any "killer" interconnect for less than $200.

Interconnects and speaker/headphone cables do not produce a sound (in my opinion). They can only degrade the sound however good they are. A high grade interconnect will however let more sound pass through than a bad quality cable. So, if someone is pretty happy with the sound of his source (dac/cd player), it can make sense to buy better interconnects to get "more" of the sound.

On the other hand, power cables are a different matter. Because some of them "filtrate" the sound of the incoming AC, they can make a component sound "better" than its stock form. I am using these power cords (Powertrans Plus mains cord) for both my dac and headamp and they make a noticeable improvement. Hell, I even tried them on my LCD and they improved everything (resolution, contrast, ...).
As an example, I put the $300 PowerTransPlus power cord on $250 dac and it was better sounding than a $500 DAC using a basic power cord. So it might make sense sometimes to use expensive power cords to improve the sound of a system without upgrading the existing components.

However, while I believe that cables are important, no one should invest in them if they dislilke their current system. The speakers/headphones play a big role in the final outcome of the system.

 

[slim.a]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif The problem with buying a $1,000 power cord that may or may not make a difference is that it costs $1,000. That's a significant amount of money. If we were arguing over $10 and $20 cables, I'd say go ahead and buy what you want. As for mass delusions... take you pick. How about the real estate bubble or the prior bubble - stock in online companies that don't turn a profit? Can you explain those? If you want some historical examples, try the Salem Witch Trials or the infamous tulip bubble. For a more recent delusion, read up on the "penis theft" phenomenon that turns up in Africa. Also check out early 20th century quack medicine. For an entertaining - and horrifying - read, search out the Radium Ore Revigator. Oh, and run a search for the Sunshine Radon Health Mine. Yes, it is still in operation and no, it is not a joke. Keep in mind that those who deliberately irradiate themselves (past and present) truly believe they're doing something healthy. People do all sorts of crazy things. It's hard to find a time or situation when humans act rationally. My take on cables is that the "differences" are entirely placebo. That's from looking at a sum of the evidence. Electrical testing is at an advanced stage. Not perfect, but fine measurements of subatomic particles are routinely made. Anything that falls within the realm of human perception ought to be measurable. Yet it never has been accomplished with cables. Second, listeners always fail unsighted tests. People even give high marks to coathangers, paper clips, degraded cables, etc. Third, cable "technology" has never been applied to a field outside of audiophilia. If there were genuine benefits, you better believe they'd be exploited in semiconductors and other fine electronic applications. That doesn't happen. Finally, placebo is a well-known phenemenon and has been studied at length in medical and other trials. Placebo is real and absolutely affects human perception. If you want to measure human perception, you absolutely have to control for placebo. You have to take preconceptions and expectations out of the loop if you want accuracy. If someone wants to demonstrate that cables "work," they will have to show a physical difference with test equipment and also demonstrate that people can hear it without placebo. This also needs to be peer reviewed and repeatable by others. I am willing to accept results under these methods. If I am wrong, I willadmit it and happily buy cables to improve my system. Until then, however, I willontinue to use my $1 power cords. Those measure great, by the way. I get the same readings off them that I get directly out of the socket.

Even if the difference did not existed how vital is to ask for every body that spend more than $20 on a cable to do a DBT to prove he is sane ?

There are people who buy wine bottles at $1000+. Do we ask them to make a DBT test each time they ask for one ?
There are people who buy paintings/art that cost many thousands dollars. Do we ask them to do a DBT test to see if they can differenciate the painting they bought from a copy ?

I just find it sad that every time someone asks for an advice about cables, there are many people that run to tell him that he is full of delusions.