[Blisse]

Lol I found Synapse incredibly inconvenient even before seeing the post on Reddit about it. It doesn't matter to me if they take my user profile or anything because I understand that this is a way of monitoring user preferences. People bitch and whine about "the man" snooping in their stuff and yet, they keep going on Facebook.
I find Synapse to be inconvenient because there is a distinct lag between booting the computer and the time that it takes for Synapse to start up, which means that there's a period of about 15 seconds where the mouse's sensitivity is all wonky. Also, there's no way of switching between profiles without "alt+tab"ing out of whatever game that you're playing and actively switching the profile on the Synapse program's page. Also, may I add at this point that Synapse takes forever to load? And no, it's not a problem with my computer being ****ty because I have Synapse downloaded and loaded from my SSD. It's just an inefficient program. 
The fact that you have to be connected to the internet in order to switch profiles is ridiculous. Because Synapse is--like you said--a cloud-based program, if you don't have internet there's no way of getting your profile adjusted to what you want. 
Personally, I would MUCH rather prefer them to just let us download drivers from either their website or from a CD because keeping information for peripherals on the cloud is stupid and inconvenient.

It's funny because for being someone that tries to "understand what you're reading" you make a lot of assumptions. So before dissing someone, you should probably ask, "What do you mean by that?" 

Considering those are all limitations of the old Synapse drivers, the only valid concern is the slow driver start-up, which is a pretty big deal. I'm pretty sure you can use Synapse in off-line mode, so just use that? You can save local settings in offline mode.

If you were only talking generally about Synapse, then sorry for the misunderstanding, but none of the majority of concerns about Synapse 2.0 are valid, or any more relevant than what were already limitations on the original Synapse.

 

[Taowolf51]

I've owned all Razer mice since the Copperhead, and I've never once used Razer Synapse.

 

[clackers]

Quote:

Considering those are all limitations of the old Synapse drivers, the only valid concern is the slow driver start-up, which is a pretty big deal. I'm pretty sure you can use Synapse in off-line mode, so just use that? You can save local settings in offline mode.
If you were only talking generally about Synapse, then sorry for the misunderstanding, but none of the majority of concerns about Synapse 2.0 are valid, or any more relevant than what were already limitations on the original Synapse.

Yeah, I just have general disdain for Synapse. I don't think any of the concerns that people had on Reddit were valid (spyware? What?). I personally wouldn't mind paying the extra $30 for a Steelseries Sensei or even less for the Sensei Raw because, like I said earlier, I've begun changing up my hand-style. Also, I would be able to switch profiles on the fly which is pretty freaking cool. 
 
Sorry for any animosity in my earlier post. 

 

[fishbone]

Oh I didn't know that there is a mouse-fi thread here.
As a good (let's say semi-pro...) player on Quake (ye this game still exists), I would like to share my knowledge on mice.
I saw that Steelseries and Razer are kicking in this thread, but they produce in last 3 or 4 years crap mice. I'm very picky so I may find something annoying while you don't even care/know about it. But as Head-fier, I think it's mendatory .
 
For example, the Steelseries Sensei uses the same sensor as the Xai (Avago 9500) which is a laser sensor, it is really good but this sensor doesn't like dust, it becomes jittery at times and the sensitivity is altered (clean your lens, you will see). It also have negative and positive acceleration which means that for quick movements, your mouse doesn't register a constant traveled distance as doing slow movements. On this point, I know that you probably don't even care . But the dust thing with the XAI is a no go for me.
That's why I'm selling mine (35€). If someone want it, send a private message ! ^^
You have an extended view of major mice you can find on the market with their flaws (or not) : http://www.esreality.com/index.php?a=post&id=2024663
 
And for the Synapse thing, you can't even use the mouse If you don't have the internet for the first time when installing it...

 

[Blisse]

Oh I didn't know that there is a mouse-fi thread here.
As a good (let's say semi-pro...) player on Quake (ye this game still exists), I would like to share my knowledge on mice.
I saw that Steelseries and Razer are kicking in this thread, but they produce in last 3 or 4 years crap mice. I'm very picky so I may find something annoying while you don't even care/know about it. But as Head-fier, I think it's mendatory .

For example, the Steelseries Sensei uses the same sensor as the Xai (Avago 9500) which is a laser sensor, it is really good but this sensor doesn't like dust, it becomes jittery at times and the sensitivity is altered (clean your lens, you will see). It also have negative and positive acceleration which means that for quick movements, your mouse doesn't register a constant traveled distance as doing slow movements. On this point, I know that you probably don't even care . But the dust thing with the XAI is a no go for me.

And for the Synapse thing, you can't even use the mouse If you don't have the internet for the first time when installing it...

That's a lie, btw. Truth!

If you mean about not being able to use the extra buttons, how can you expect to setup 12 extra buttons if you don't have the firmware? I'm not sure if they package the disk though, so there's that concern.

I don't like SteelSeries because of all the prediction they put on a bunch of their mice, and the really sensitive sensor. I guess since I don't play FPS games much anymore it doesn't matter to me, but I'm fine with my DeathAdder.

Considering those are all limitations of the old Synapse drivers, the only valid concern is the slow driver start-up, which is a pretty big deal. I'm pretty sure you can use Synapse in off-line mode, so just use that? You can save local settings in offline mode.

If you were only talking generally about Synapse, then sorry for the misunderstanding, but none of the majority of concerns about Synapse 2.0 are valid, or any more relevant than what were already limitations on the original Synapse.

Yeah, I just have general disdain for Synapse. I don't think any of the concerns that people had on Reddit were valid (spyware? What?). I personally wouldn't mind paying the extra $30 for a Steelseries Sensei or even less for the Sensei Raw because, like I said earlier, I've begun changing up my hand-style. Also, I would be able to switch profiles on the fly which is pretty freaking cool. 

Sorry for any animosity in my earlier post. 

I don't like it, but I don't dislike it. Like, it doesn't affect me in anyway, except giving my Razer stuff a bit more functionality. Until they make mice as big as the DeathAdder for my huge hands, I'll have to pass on most other mice. Palming feels a bit more natural imo. I don't use the profile things, and I'm not sure what that button on the bottom of the DeathAdder does, so I probably don't have as much experience as a Naga user, but people made such a huge deal out of nothing. Reddit is a bad place XD

And it's fine. I was the one who was wrong, so it's not like you did anything wrong.

 

[fishbone]

When I read that : http://www.overclock.net/t/1319323/razer-synapse-2-0-software-mouse-unusable-if-you-dont-have-an-internet-connection-or-their-servers-are-down
I can tell that it's just crap .
 
Ah that's the same source in fact, ahah .
Well I didn't read all the entire post of Razer but did they modify their policy after that post ?
And who needs to buy a Naga...
I have 3 buttons on my mouse and I'm kicking asses
 
And for Steelseries, what is the reference to the "prediction" you stated ? You mean angle snapping ? Because the only mouse that have prediction is the Kinzu. Xai/Sensei have a buit-in technology to turn on/off the prediction. Kana is prediction free. The Ikari uses the same sensor as the Logitech MX518 which has prediction

 

[Blisse]

Yeah, you can use the mouse. You can't customize the mouse unless you use the software.

Regular mice like the DeathAdder work fine. The Naga needs special customization which can be accessed by registering an account.

Or by downloading the effing legacy Synapse 1.0 software from Razer's site.

The amount of crying, misinformation, and pitchforking is pathetic in that thread. I understand that you're angry as a customer, and that the reason Razer hurriedly released all of the legacy drivers is because of the amount of crying, but grow up, gosh. There's much better ways of dealing with it than complaining over the Internet. This is why I don't head over to most forums, like Reddit. The maturity level is so ridiculously low for the vast majority of users.

Their policy wasn't modified, else I would have been asked to accept a new one at some time. I think, anyways.


Mouse prediction, mouse acceleration, all sorts of other junk. I don't know where it says the Ikari uses the MX518 laser. Googling XY2 and MX518 returns nothing. Also, there's an option to turn off prediction? Why is it even on? :/

 

[fishbone]

Quote:

Yeah, you can use the mouse. You can't customize the mouse unless you use the software.
Regular mice like the DeathAdder work fine. The Naga needs special customization which can be accessed by registering an account.
Or by downloading the effing legacy Synapse 1.0 software from Razer's site.
The amount of crying, misinformation, and pitchforking is pathetic in that thread. I understand that you're angry as a customer, and that the reason Razer hurriedly released all of the legacy drivers is because of the amount of crying, but grow up, gosh. There's much better ways of dealing with it than complaining over the Internet. This is why I don't head over to most forums, like Reddit. The maturity level is so ridiculously low for the vast majority of users.
Their policy wasn't modified, else I would have been asked to accept a new one at some time. I think, anyways.
Mouse prediction, mouse acceleration, all sorts of other junk. I don't know where it says the Ikari uses the MX518 laser. Googling XY2 and MX518 returns nothing. Also, there's an option to turn off prediction? Why is it even on? :/

 
Ok my bad then, I should have read the whole thing.
 
For the Ikari (I mean the optical version, not the laser one) and the MX518, they don't use exactly the same optical sensor in fact, the Ikari is based on the ADNS-3060 and the MX518 ADNS-3080 made by Avago but which are in practical basically the same.
For the prediction, you need to blame Avago and not the manufacturer who build the mouse. The lastest Avago optical sensor ADNS-3090 is prediction free now. Razer has special version of those sensor as you can see in the following link. The 3G/3.5G sensor from Razer, is surely the best sensor ever. No prediction (need a firmware update), no accel and good maximum functionnal speed (up to 4m/s). The ADNS-3090 is similar to this one.
http://www.esreality.com/wiki/Hardware:Mice_Sensors
 
It is on maybe because it's the default option out of the box I guess, chosen by the manufacturer for making you install their drivers .
For gamers, prediction can be bad but for the designers prediction is a gift to draw straight line with a mice.

 

[Phos]

Quote:

^ that mouse looks horrible and gimmicky :/ like those troll mice they sell that's shaped like animals.
The amount of misinformation about Synapse 2.0 is ridiculously astounding. It amazes me that people's reading comprehension is so low that they can't interpret clear information properly, so they trust what randoms on the Reddit spread.
Synapse 2.0 is made so they don't have to increase the size of the memory on the mouse for all your 5-6 profiles. High speed memory is really expensive, so imagine the costs added onto already a large investment.
If you install Synapse 2.0, it's like having the Razer mouse drivers installed, except when instead of storing all the 6 profile settings on your mouse with expensive memory and swapping which profile the mouse uses, you link it up to the Internet and if you want to switch profiles, it'll download the profile from the Cloud and swap out the old profile into your mouse.
Sure, it can be used as a cheap way to monitor some of their user's preferences, if you let them track your information, but that's in no way the only reason.
i.e. People are foolish and need to learn to interpret information properly.
I'm pretty sure if it's just my upbringing, but I try to question and understand what I'm reading. I'm taking Engineering courses and they drilled into us that high speed memory is expensive. Think about how much cache is on your CPU, and how important cache is to your system.

 
The memory in these mice is typically measured in kilobytes and the margins on these mice are insane anyway.  It's also another program you need to keep running.  With built in memory I just remove the mouse's driver from start up and just open it when I need to change something and never notice the difference.  
 
Oh, and apparently synapse 2.0 mice still have non volatile memory in them anyway.  

 

[Blisse]

The memory in these mice is typically measured in kilobytes and the margins on these mice are insane anyway.  It's also another program you need to keep running.  With built in memory I just remove the mouse's driver from start up and just open it when I need to change something and never notice the difference.  

Oh, and apparently synapse 2.0 mice still have non volatile memory in them anyway.  

I'm not sure you understand how memory works. Do you even understand what non-volatile means? Do you even understand anything that goes on in the hardware level with mice, and the associated costs of these systems? Is your knowledge of memory only concerned at the flash and SDRAM/DDRAM level, and you're trying to apply it to embedded systems?


Not sure how much parallel memory costs and at what speeds mice need them running at. I'll make an educated guess. If you have some inside information I'm not aware of, then by all means enlighten me.

64KB 250ns parallel EEPROM memory costs about $8 according to one website. I'll assume $5 in bulk.
Not sure what's the difference between 150ns and 250ns (150ns is cheaper but different model). I'll assume worst case just to prove this point.

Since mice need to be able to poll at 1000Hz, the memory needs to run at significantly faster than that, but I'll take 1000Hz, which translates into roughly 1ms access times, so the speed's covered with the 250ns. At least, I hope it is. I don't know, I don't design mice.

Then we need to figure out how much memory profiles cost. But I'm also not sure if they're using cheaper flash memory for other access. Apparently the Nova mice? uses some 512KB of flash memory and EEPROM. Hard to say. Again, assume worst case and only EEPROM.

Say 1 profile stored costs about 64KB in space. Adding 3 profiles would be 3x64KB, which is 256KB since I've never see a 192KB anything ever. So we'll say that's $10 more or so.

But that's assuming Naga profiles are the same size as regular mice profiles, like a DeathAdder. I mean, how many rebinds do DeathAdders have versus the Nagas.

Maybe each profile costs about 128KB. Now you're looking at $40 more to store 3 profiles. Possibly.

Use Synapse 2.0? You stall the mice for a little bit to add an unlimited number of profile options, and you can save customers money for a slight inconvenience. At least, that's where I'm hoping they're going for this.

You don't even consider the R&D costs for developer of the new system either.


I'm not here to argue ethics of Synapse 2.0 and user information tracking. This is an example of how costs might build up when you're designing a mouse and adding memory for more profile space, versus using one memory and swapping it. I'm also aware that EEPROM is not the best solution for this, so there should be some flash mixed in, but that would raise the complexity of this example too much.

 

[AzureBeat]

So, other than Razer and Steelseries, what companies make gaming mice? And has anyone else done a top/bottom side button arrangement like the (discontinued) Sidewinder X8?

I have a Razer Lachesis and Steelseries mat and keyboard. No problems with either, but I love looking.
 

 

[proton007]

Quote:

So, other than Razer and Steelseries, what companies make gaming mice? And has anyone else done a top/bottom side button arrangement like the (discontinued) Sidewinder X8?

I have a Razer Lachesis and Steelseries mat and keyboard. No problems with either, but I love looking.
 

Logitech??

 

[AzureBeat]

Oh, yeah, forgot about them.
 
So, those, also Corsair has a couple that I don't know much about, ThermalTake makes one or two. Cyborg has the Rats.
I seem to prefer bigger mice, I moved from a diamondback to my current mouse, and really like it. Maybe I'll try an ergonomic mouse sometime . . . maybe.

 

[Rydock]

I'm running a Madcatz R.A.T. 5 right now and I freaking love this thing. Great button layout and features. Nice feeling and weights (with all adjustable weights installed). I have relatively small hands, and this fits perfectly for me. I'm running the DPI at 2400, and that seems more than enough for what I need. Also love the looks of this thing.

 

[proton007]

Quote:

Oh, yeah, forgot about them.
 
So, those, also Corsair has a couple that I don't know much about, ThermalTake makes one or two. Cyborg has the Rats.
I seem to prefer bigger mice, I moved from a diamondback to my current mouse, and really like it. Maybe I'll try an ergonomic mouse sometime . . . maybe.

I think most gaming mice are more ergonomic than the usual ones.