[Resolve]

Your description of these spaciousness effects suits me fine. Thanks! I am aware of your preference for the Hybrid pads, but could you kindly comment on how differently these effects of spaciousness are conveyed by both pads? I intend to get both pads eventually, so I am not necessarily seeing any of these pad options in "either/or" terms.

I'd expect it to be a bit more pronounced with the perf pads for most people, as it is for me. But it's not a massive difference.

 

[chrisnyc75]

My thoughts on soundstage probably won't be too popular here but in general soundstage (and specifically distance and locatedness) doesn't actually exist in stereo headphones. It's instead more of a spaciousness effect conferred by the relationship between the upper mids and treble - specifically the dip around 1-2khz. I'd say for that quality the Tungsten is fairly normal, in a good way. It has a bit of that effect, similar to the hifiman headphones, but it's also not as extreme for this as say the HD 800S.

I agree with you entirely, and once I realized this I actually realized this is something I generally do NOT prefer. Concentrating on what I'm actually hearing, what we usually call "soundstage" in headphones is really the music being presented in a diffuse way which perceptually pulls the sound away from you. Turns out, much to my surprise early in my headphone journey, I actually prefer "intimate" headphones where the sound is placed close to me (which I personally think is what we usually term "dynamic slam")

 

[goldwerger]

My thoughts on soundstage probably won't be too popular here but in general soundstage (and specifically distance and locatedness) doesn't actually exist in stereo headphones. It's instead more of a spaciousness effect conferred by the relationship between the upper mids and treble - specifically the dip around 1-2khz. I'd say for that quality the Tungsten is fairly normal, in a good way. It has a bit of that effect, similar to the hifiman headphones, but it's also not as extreme for this as say the HD 800S.

Don't you find that other factors - such as the distance of the driver from the ear and its angle, pad material and construction/perforations, or even upstream gear (such tubes rolled, DAC filter selected, etc) - also impact soundstage perception?

of couse all of these may translate to the specific effect you describe in a dip around the upper mids, but is that always the effect of these factors? I know psychoacoustics can get pretty complex, I wonder whether additional factors may also create that perception (which, personally, I definitely perceive, and not always with that tonal dip; my crooked ears and all)

curious about your thoughts, genuinely interested to learn more about it

 

[Tchoupitoulas]

I'll add the observation - not to contradict anything posted above - that different facets of staging can also be experienced in the bass regions. Some headphones, like the LCD-4 and the Caldera, have rich, strong bass presentations that are quite focused and concentrated in a fairly small field of sound, like little nuggets of bassy goodness. Others, like the D8000 have a more open-sounding but no less rich bass, and then the likes of the Abyss 1266 provide a very open, airy, and spacious sound to the bass (and in the case of the 1266, across the frequency response).

One of the striking things about the single-sided Tungsten I heard at CAF, out of a CFA3 amp, was how spacious and open but also strong the bass was, even though the headphone doesn't project the largest soundstage (unlike, say, the 1266). It was as though the bass had a large, room-filling quality to it, one that was almost cavernous. The bass reminded me of the LCD-4's when it came to warmth, sub-bass depth and rumble, mid-bass punch, and overall tactility and robustness. But it was more massive and open, and it's one of the things, months later, I look forward to hearing again with the Tungsten.

 

[Resolve]

Don't you find that other factors - such as the distance of the driver from the ear and its angle, pad material and construction/perforations, or even upstream gear (such tubes rolled, DAC filter selected, etc) - also impact soundstage perception?

of couse all of these may translate to the specific effect you describe in a dip around the upper mids, but is that alwasy the the effect of these factors? I know psychoacoustics can get pretty complex, I wonder whether additional factors may also create that perception (which, personally, I definitely perceive, and not always with that tonal dip; my crooker ears and all)

Psychoacoustics definitely. So like, this needs to be better studied, and we don't know what the psychoacoustic effect of driver distance/angle is, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's influential. With tubes I'm not so sure. But DAC filters probably not.

 

[goldwerger]

Psychoacoustics definitely. So like, this needs to be better studied, and we don't know what the effect of driver distance/angle is, but if anything it's almost certainly psychoacoustic. With tubes I'm not so sure.

thanks for the reply.

psychoacoustic in the end is all the matters or, to clarify, how we perceive the sound (however this was achieved) is the end result...

tubes - it's a mystery to me, but a definite reality - certain tubes on certain amps can make big (not remotely nuanced) differences.

it would fascinating to see if/how this is studied in the future. compeltely agree this needs to be better understood. For myself, I can only rely on practical experience ("if I change X, I get Y"), but would be wonderful to understand the way our brain perceive space and which tools developers can use to tap into that.

thanks again

 

[Slackaveli]

My thoughts on soundstage probably won't be too popular here but in general soundstage (and specifically distance and locatedness) doesn't actually exist in stereo headphones. It's instead more of a spaciousness effect conferred by the relationship between the upper mids and treble - specifically the dip around 1-2khz. I'd say for that quality the Tungsten is fairly normal, in a good way. It has a bit of that effect, similar to the hifiman headphones, but it's also not as extreme for this as say the HD 800S.


Image separation is also really good. With headphones that have low variance for behavior on different heads (and the Tungsten is pretty good for that), you end up getting a better matched response in situ when worn on the head, and in my experience this seems to correlate well for being able to clearly delineated different regions and pans in mixes - different instrument lines and so on.

It also helps that it's got flat linear bass extension all the way down and an FR that doesn't overly mask the clarity of those regions.

Ha! Next thing and you'll be saying cables don't matter and that burn-in isnt a thing!

 

[Resolve]

Ha! Next thing and you'll be saying cables don't matter and that burn-in isnt a thing!

Hey now, technically you can find cases where cables do make a difference.

 

[up late]

@Resolve, i am wondering whether you have an overall preference for the tungsten or the susvara. and does one sound more open and spacious in its presentation than the other to your ears? i'm seeking your subjective impressions here.

 

[Cecala]

@Resolve,
I get the feeling that while you like these phones, you don't REALLY like them. What phones would you get aside or as an alternative to these and why?
Also how do these compare to say the ZMF closed back fare Bass wise, which hits harder?
Thank you.

 

[mfgillia]

Your description of these spaciousness effects suits me fine. Thanks! I am aware of your preference for the Hybrid pads, but could you kindly comment on how differently these effects of spaciousness are conveyed by both pads? I intend to get both pads eventually, so I am not necessarily seeing any of these pad options in "either/or" terms.

It's a pretty significant difference to my ears and had swapped back and forth during the first two months. Ordinary with most headphones, I would generally prefer the warmer, bass emphasis from the hybrid pads.

More recently though, have developed a strong preference for the ultra perforated stock pads preferring it's more open, airy, detailed presentation.

 

[muths66]

It's a pretty significant difference to my ears and had swapped back and forth during the first two months. Ordinary with most headphones, I would generally prefer the warmer, bass emphasis from the hybrid pads.

More recently though, have developed a strong preference for the ultra perforated stock pads preferring it's more open, airy, detailed presentation.

So the perforated sound more opean and airy than hybrid?? I also ordered 2 different earpads. Sam zmf have thick caldera angle earpad look interesting.

 

[mfgillia]

So the perforated sound more opean and airy than hybrid?? I also ordered 2 different earpads. Sam zmf have thick caldera angle earpad look interesting.

Yep, the ultra perforated pads on the DS Tungstens sound noticeably more open and airy, which is likely the reason Ryan made them the stock pads.

I think everyone should own both though and see which they prefer over time as the hybrids are great / fun too.

 

[Axel]

I not sure but i wait mine for quite a long time but when waiting I decided to change to ds instead of ss.

How long did you wait?

 

[betula]

I agree with you entirely, and once I realized this I actually realized this is something I generally do NOT prefer. Concentrating on what I'm actually hearing, what we usually call "soundstage" in headphones is really the music being presented in a diffuse way which perceptually pulls the sound away from you. Turns out, much to my surprise early in my headphone journey, I actually prefer "intimate" headphones where the sound is placed close to me (which I personally think is what we usually term "dynamic slam")

When you mentioned large but diffuse soundstage vs. smaller but more focused (better dynamic slam), I immediately thought of the oval HiFiMan headphones. Those sound large, but also quite diffuse which I too dislike. Always gravitated towards a more 'precise' image and dynamic punch versus a big but diffuse stage (preferred LCD-X versus the first Arya for example). That said, I like a larger soundstage, but it is not easy to find headphones that can sound spacious and precise/dynamic at the same time. Meze Elite has a large stage too, although images are not as huge/tall as they are on the HE1000 series for example but still very spacious. It is a laid-back sounding headphone, so won't slam your brain out, but to me already sounds a lot more 'focused' (with angled pads) than the HE series. Caldera has smaller stage than the Elite, but still bigger than 2/3rd of the headphones. Plus, there is plenty of slam and dynamics. It is about finding the right concoction for you, the perfect personal blend of soundstage size, precision, clarity, dynamic slam.

Don't you find that other factors - such as the distance of the driver from the ear and its angle, pad material and construction/perforations, or even upstream gear (such tubes rolled, DAC filter selected, etc) - also impact soundstage perception?

Most definitely. On many headphones if you increase the distance between your ears and the drivers (using thicker earpads) the perceived soundstage size grows. Tubes can also give the sensation of a larger space. As well as DACs and amps can come across as more or less spacious. DAC filters maybe not so much.

I am fully aware, that soundstage is created in our head by our brain as an illusion, but I think you need to feed the right data to the brain for it being able to create a believable illusion. By believable I mean precise and clear enough to feel it is real. It also seems, the size of the soundscape depends on the information we feed to our brain. So, from certain sonic clues the brain will create a smaller, from other audio data it will create a bigger perceived stage. That is why I do not think I contradict any previous posts; science will always be behind and has to catch up with explanations why people experience what they experience.